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In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes blind sailors and leaders Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas from Blind Sailing Canada to demystify what “blind sailing” really looks and feels like. Together they trace Karoline’s journey from clinging nervously to the corner of a boat to becoming an avid racer, and Chris’s perspective as both a competitive helm and long-time volunteer. They vividly describe the sensory world of sailing without sight, tracking the wind by how it hits your face and ears, listening for the changing sound of water on the hull, feeling heel through the tiller, and using the luffing of sails as an audio cue that something needs to be trimmed or adjusted. Along the way they dismantle the idea that sailing is only for the young or athletic, stressing that there’s no real age limit so long as a person has enough strength and agility for the conditions at hand.
Donna then leads a deep dive into how Blind Sailing Canada keeps its seven-day-a-week season running safely and inclusively, from a custom scheduling app and vetted sighted volunteers, to mandatory PFDs, pre-departure safety checklists, and carefully guided first sails that prioritize comfort and confidence. Karoline and Chris explain the contrast between their two boats, the responsive Capri 22 “C-Breeze” with a tiller beloved by racers, and the roomier 27-foot cruiser “Catch the Wind,” and how each teaches different skills and experiences. They talk about teaching new sailors to board safely, offering as much or as little hands-on involvement as someone wants on day one, and why they actually use very little adaptive tech on board, preferring to sail “by feel” with clear verbal communication rather than constant electronic chatter. The conversation ends with an open invitation: anyone curious can join as a member, volunteer, or donor through blindsailing.ca, attend pub nights and dock parties, help with boat maintenance, and, most importantly, come out for that first sail and discover that there is truly nothing to be afraid of on the water.
TRANSCRIPT
Podcast Commentator: Greetings.
Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I’m Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the Landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019. I call it the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I’m not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you’ll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets, lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today’s conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today’s guest changemaker, whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Today, I am pleased to welcome Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas. So, Karoline, welcome to our podcast.
Karoline Bourdeau: Thank you.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right, so I’d like to start things off by having you share the moment that you first realized that blind sailing Could be more than an experience that it could become your sport and your community.
Karoline Bourdeau: Thank you. I’ll start. By the first time I went sailing and I sat in the corner of the boat thinking, I don’t like this. I don’t want to do this. I don’t trust this boat. Oh, no. This is not good. Oh, dear. And then about two years later I had been sailing for a while at that point, and people started saying, you want to race, you should come racing. And I was like, I am not the person you want racing because I don’t know what I’m doing. And so three years ago now I joined a race. Thinking, okay, I’ll try it just because I will try anything once. Almost. And there was something about the concentration, the shared goal, and actually making the quick decisions as you’re at the helm of a boat. That just worked for me. And even though, you know, the first few minutes of a race, I’m all nerves. And I often wonder, why do they let me on these boats? It’s an amazing experience, and I do love it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I could hear in your voice how much you like it, right?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think it’s it’s great that, you know, blind sailing is there for us. As a blind host, I often navigate by sound, touch and clear language. Okay. For those listeners who have never sailed, can you walk us through the sensory feel of a good upwind grove? What you’re listening for, what you’re feeling through the helm and sheets and how you know you’re trimmed, right?
Karoline Bourdeau: Wow. Okay. So the sensory experience on a boat is like no other. There are so many things that you are feeling and listening for on a boat. So the direction of the wind. Where is it? On my face? Where is it coming from? Is it on my ears? How strong is it? Is the boat heeled over like is it? You know, how sideways is it? Chris and I are the same, and we like it really well heeled over. And you hear this if you’re hearing your sails, that’s called luffing. And that is probably meaning that you are not in the in the correct trim. And thankfully we have lovely sighted crew who can correct that for us. Or we can sometimes ask other blind sailors to change something in, in the lines, or sometimes it’s just a simple adjustment that we make at the helm. On the boat with the tiller, you can feel the boat pull sometimes and and sometimes you can adjust you feel that on the wheel as well. But I find that the tiller is way more sensitive and way more responsive than a wheel for me. I don’t know if that answers your question.
Chris Jonas: So I’ll just add add to that, if I may. So the things that Caroline mentioned are, are all accurate. It’s also the, the, the sound of the water as it laps against the hull of the boat. If you if you feel that changing, then you know, something has changed and you need to get back into the groove. And usually you can also tell along with all the other things Caroline mentioned, you can tell by how the water feels against the hull of the boat. And when when Caroline was mentioning the sails luffing that generally means that you’re sailing a little too close to the wind. So the best thing to do in that circumstance is to bear off the wind a little bit, and that usually resolves it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, this sounds really technical to me here. Well.
Chris Jonas: Well, well, some of us, some of us as as you may know, are are quite avid racers as well as recreational sailors. So when you get into racing, you, you kind of get a lot more knowledgeable about how to adjust things and what’s happening out there. It’s it’s a great way to learn more very quickly because you’re in a very competitive environment usually, and you need to make decisions quickly.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Is there an age limit for racing? Like too old, too young, too old?
Chris Jonas: That’s an it’s an interesting question. The short answer is no. There are racers that start like, basically soon after they start walking. I mean, their parents get them into sailing very, very young. And and a lot of those, those parents are racers themselves, so they, you know, they bring their, their, their kids along sometimes in terms of too old as long as, as long as you still have the strength. It’s mostly a question of strength and agility on board, because sometimes you can get into a very rough situations. And if you still have the strength and the agility, like I, I’ve, I’ve raced with someone in his 80s and he was an excellent racer, you know so there’s, there’s no real upper limit. It just it’s, it’s very individual as to how that particular person is feeling and is able to adapt to the weather conditions and the and the racing conditions.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So there may be still hope for me then.
Chris Jonas: Absolutely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
Karoline Bourdeau: Hey, if I got there, you can. Oh.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Lordy, no blind sailing. Canada runs a full Fall in season schedule, often seven days a week from mid-May to mid-October. How do you coordinate boats, weather calls, transportation volunteers, and staff safety so consistently?
Chris Jonas: Well, that’s a loaded question. Do you want to do you want to start answering that, Caroline?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah. And then you can fill in on this. So we we actually have a scheduling website that we call the sailing app, and members, crew and skippers are all signed up for that as soon as they become members or are or have joined us as volunteers. And basically, it’s a lot of it is, you know, a group of people says, I want to sail on Saturday. So they create a sail and now other everyone can join it because they can see it. And we have capacity on the different, the two different boats. So once a sail is full then it kind of disappears from the available sails. And sometimes we end up with the situation where both boats are out at the same time. And that’s wonderful. We love to see that. And we actually do sometimes have a summer student through Canada summer jobs who helps with the coordinating of the different sails. The safety is like, our biggest concern, and our skippers and volunteers and our members actually are really quite careful and very good at learning what needs to be done and how to stay safe. Because safety, learning and fun are our three principles. And we really do enjoy an amazing community that is very aware and very inclusive and the transportation issue a lot of our members use wheel-trans some people carpool. Just depends on the situation, but I’ll tell you, they get there.
Chris Jonas: We also we also have pretty pretty good TTC access through various streetcars that will go very close, at least two different streetcar lines, one, one starting at Spadina station, one starting at Union Station. So it’s actually quite easy to get there if you’re comfortable using TTC. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll add to the the safety question in that we have a very, very extensive volunteer vetting program. So any new volunteer interested in in joining our program must first go out on what we call a vetting sail with an experienced skipper who will assess their their boat knowledge, their sailing ability, just to make sure that they are comfortable both sailing the vessel in a very safe manner and also is comfortable dealing with blind or vision impaired members on board because that’s the environment that they will they will be in when they actually go out on a real sail after they’ve passed the vetting section. So it’s very important that they both know, know their way about a boat, know enough about sailing to be able to handle the boats in all weather conditions safely, and also feel very comfortable communicating with a demographic that they may not previously have had much exposure to, namely the blind community. So we look at every aspect of it, and we’ve had an incredibly successful history in terms of not have I don’t think we’ve ever had any really major accident. We’ve had little, you know, little scrapes and minor accidents here and there that oftentimes is more the result of the weather than anything else. But we’ve done a remarkably good job of keeping all of our members and volunteers safe and also kept our boats away from any truly major damage. So you know, it’s a great program in that regard. As Caroline said, safety is the number one concern. It always has been. And and Bsac or blind sailing has always done, I think, a really, really good job with with that particular aspect of it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where are you guys located? Like where is your base?
Chris Jonas: So it’s Marina Key West, which is in Toronto Harbor between Bathurst and Spadina.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
Chris Jonas: Most people probably get off either, depending on well, most people take wheel-trans, which comes right into the parking lot, so very close to the Marina office. And then we’ll usually have a volunteer meet them at the office and walk them to the boats. If they’re coming by TTC, then you know, if they’re on the Spadina line, they’ll get off at the Queen’s Key stop, which is Queens Quay and Spadina, and it’s an easy walk over from there. Or if they’re on the other line on the Queens Quay line that comes from Union, they’ll get off at Dan Leckie, which is even a little bit closer to the Marina office. So it’s quite accessible in that regard.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Your training pathway is aligned with mainstream standards and adapted for blind and low vision sailors. What does the first lesson look like? What are the first three skills that you teach, and how do you move someone from their first day sail to confidently helming?
Chris Jonas: It’s just it’s just mostly practice, practice, practice, practice. The more exposure you get to it, the more skills you learn, the more comfortable you feel aboard a sailboat, the more your muscle memory kicks in. It’s just it’s just all. It’s just really comes down to time in the boat. And the more you do it, the better you get at it. Just like a lot of a lot of things.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Yeah.
Karoline Bourdeau: Some of us have done some you know, sale Canada training where, you know, we’ve spent time with an instructor on a boat. But it’s not a requirement for our members. You know, most of us just get the experience by being on the boat. And I would say the first lesson just to go back to that is how to get on the boat safely and how to get off the boat safely. Because that’s a huge, I think, point of concern for most of us as new sailors.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for someone like myself who would probably need a refresher course, tell me what? Tell me what the first day would look like for me.
Karoline Bourdeau: So you would be met at the Marina office? And then somebody would walk with you to the dock. You would be guided on to the boat, basically by someone showing you where the stanchion is. Put your hand on the boat and showing you where to step. And basically explaining where are things located on the boat and, you know, telling you where you should be. And then it goes from there. And the first sail is usually like, we try and make it a calm sail where it’s not too windy, not a lot of heel on the boat so you can get to experience whatever you want to do. If you want to try and and see what lines feel like or how it feels to pull a line. Or if you want to get on the helm, you can try that as well. We’ll make sure that we’re in an open space where you can do that. And yeah, and a lot of people love it. They want to come back as soon as you put them on the helm. I think most of them say that. That’s it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I did try it years ago, like I mentioned to you before with Susan and Francis. Maybe next year. I’m not going to promise, but you know. Yeah. No.
Karoline Bourdeau: No.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Safety is foundational, right? What are your pre-departure routines? Okay. Okay. Rolls call and response commands. And how do you brief a brand new sailor so that they are safe and fully participating from the first time? So someone like myself.
Karoline Bourdeau: Chris, do you want to take that on?
Chris Jonas: So. So the first part of that question we do have a checklist, a digital checklist that that every skipper must fill out before leaving the dock. And it is they are required to go through the boat and and check off all of the required safety equipment that must be there. You know, things like a sound device in case you get close to another boat and you have no other way of letting them know that, that you’re on a collision course, and maybe something’s broken on our boat and we can’t get out of their way or they don’t see us. You need a sound device, a device to let them know things like a buoyant, heaving line in case someone falls overboard and you need something that floats, that you can toss out to them, because they may not know where it is, but you can toss it out and say, okay, it’s it’s two feet to your left. Just move to your left a couple of feet and grab it, and then we can pull them back into the boat. You know, things like a flashlight, fire extinguisher. There’s a whole list of, of of safety equipment that must be on board. You know, flares in case you need to send a visual signal so other boats may see where you are if you’re not near to anyone, that sort of thing. There’s a whole list. And we skippers must go through that list. Check off each item in turn and make sure that they’re there before and you know, and submit that. And then they must have that done before they’re allowed to to leave the dock. So and it’s the same on the way back when they’re back in, we must make sure that all of that same equipment is still there and present and in the right place on the, on the boat, so that the next skipper can find it easily. So there’s that. Caroline, do you want to. Yeah. Answer the next part of it.
Karoline Bourdeau: Sure. So it’s a requirement for blind sailing that before the boat leaves the dock that everyone is wearing a a PhD, and you can you can bring your own or you can use one of ours. Our boats have them on board in the different sizes. So basically we make sure the, the new person is fitted properly so that, that it’s not too loose, it’s not going to come off them or not too tight. So they’re uncomfortable. And then like I said before, we try and walk them through the boat to show them where things are, talk to them about what’s going to happen, try to describe to them you know what, What is happening? Like we’re untying the boat right now. You know, we’re going to pull out that sort of thing, and then we’ll just keep them posted as to what is happening and when it’s time that we can put up the sails, we we will ask them if they want to be involved in doing that, helping either tail or or pull lines, depending on, on how you know they’re feeling and their strength or what they think they can do. Some people want to do absolutely nothing the first time. They just want to kind of observe and take it all in. So we’re very flexible as to like what happens on the first day. But everyone is always offering information and guidance, and I think that goes for members and for crew as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do I need to be a good swimmer in order to be able to enjoy fine sailing. I mean, I am a good swimmer, but I’m just curious.
Chris Jonas: No, no. Not necessarily. I mean, you have an a certified PFD personal flotation device, which in the event that you, you fall in the water and are not a good swimmer. Yeah. That will keep you afloat until someone is able to come back and and pull you out of the water. And, you know, sailing is very interesting in that there is a a well known man overboard routine. Yeah. For how to go about returning back to where, you know, the, the person is in the water and, and making sure that they safely get back on board and, you know, it’s, it’s something that every sailor learns. It’s part of the the basic cruising course. If you, if, you know, for those that have have taken that, and a lot of our members actually have. And we we even offer that through our through blind sailing. And we did that for many years. And so a lot of over time, a lot of our, our members already have that course and they know about things like that. But, you know, if you don’t do it frequently then it’s easily forgotten. So it’s more important for the sighted crew to know those skills. And they’re usually more, more adept, and they’re the ones that we would rely on anyway to in that kind of a situation.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let’s talk a bit of tech here. What adaptive tools, audio compasses, talking GPS or smartphone apps do you actually rely on aboard, and what protocols do you use to make sure that information is timely, concise, and useful under load.
Chris Jonas: The. I’ll address that one. The truth is, Donna, that we don’t really rely a great deal on any kind of, you know, audible technology or anything like that. We do have some devices that we use. It’s mostly just for information more than something that our members rely on. For example, there’s something called cell Timer that we have on one of our boats that gives all kinds of really useful information about, you know, what is the wind speed, what is the wind angle to the boat? Right. And if and it will give you you can and you can filter it to give more or less information. So it’ll, it’ll we we usually have just a limited amount of information coming out. Otherwise like it’s constantly babbling because it will always tell you something. And it’s easy to get lost in all of that. But, you know, it’s really useful to know what’s the wind speed and what’s the the angle of the wind to the boat. So if you veer off that angle and you know you want to continue on that angle, then you can kind of turn the boat back to where you were before. And, and, and the sail timer will tell you as you’re getting closer to it.
Chris Jonas: We don’t really use we don’t really use talking compasses though or anything like that.
Karoline Bourdeau: No, I was going to add that, Donna, sailing is something that you really need to do by feel. So as we were talking about before, it’s really important for us to know what the wind is doing, where our boat is and what things we need to do. And we also rely very heavily on our sighted crew to keep us in line. Communication is huge. So everybody on the boat participates in that, And what I love about sailing sometimes it’s how peaceful and quiet it is. I don’t want anything chattering at me. It’s my time to get away from all the things that chatter at me.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Is there such a thing as a talking compass?
Chris Jonas: Yeah. There is. We actually we had a couple at one at one point. I don’t know where they got to over the years, but we never really used them very much so. But there is definitely such a thing. And the ones today are probably more advanced than the ones we had years ago.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m curious to see how it works. I mean, I got a very basic one many, many years ago. I wouldn’t even call it useful. I mean, you pressed a button and it would tell you if you’re facing east or west or north or south, I you know, but I’m curious. I mean, where would I purchase one of these.
Chris Jonas: A talking one? I could I couldn’t even tell you off the top of my head.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Karoline Bourdeau: Show would be a place to look. But also, I actually played with my iPhone as a talking compass.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes.
Karoline Bourdeau: And it works. But again, the problem with it was that it was constantly talking. Every time I adjusted, it adjusted. So.
Screen Reader: You know, I love it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, that’s the thing with the iPhone. It talks and talks and talks and talks and I mean I agree with you. You know, you go sailing, you want quiet moments. You don’t want people chatting. Not people, but things chatting at you. Right?
Chris Jonas: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You sail and train on two very different boats. The Catalina Capri 22. Yes. Sea breeze Tiller and the 27 foot cruiser. Catch the wind. I like that. And how does each platform teach different skills? And how do you decide which boat is right for a given sailor or session?
Chris Jonas: Caroline. Caroline already touched on that a little bit. You’re right. They are very different experiences. One is five feet longer with a wheel versus a tiller. Caroline talked about how the smaller boat, sea Breeze, is more responsive and and just going by feel. It’s easier to feel the boat movements from the tiller than it is on the larger boat with the wheel. So in terms of what is right for individual members, it’s, it’s it’s really up to the member themselves because some prefer, I would say the majority probably prefer the larger boat because it’s it’s bigger, it’s more comfortable. You know, there’s more room for, you know, for for a dog if you bring it on both above, above deck and below deck. And it’s a, it’s a different it’s a more of a leisurely feel. Whereas the smaller boat we use that for racing and it’s, it’s almost exclusively we use for racing because it’s, it’s designed for that. And we’ve been very successful in our racing program. We race against the totally cited Fleet fleet at National Yacht Club and we do quite well. But but there are, there is the occasional member that actually does prefer the smaller boat just for that reason that they they feel they feel it’s more responsive and they, they’re just more comfortable with that. But the majority prefer the larger boat. But, you know, we, we offer both boats obviously to, to all the members. And it’s really up to them, as I said, to decide which one they prefer.
Karoline Bourdeau: What I for one prefer the smaller boat, but.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. But what’s the difference between a tiller and a wheel? For someone like me who is pretty naive about all of this?
Chris Jonas: So a wheel. A wheel is very similar to an automobile wheel, if you think of that. Yeah. You know, the same shape, the same design. If you want to turn the boat starboard, starboard or right, then you turn the wheel right. If you want to go left, then you, you turn the wheel left. So it’s exactly the same idea as a steering wheel in a car, right? The tiller is the opposite. If you want to go port or left, then you you turn the the tiller in the opposite direction because there is a rudder attached. Well, I mean, there’s a rudder attached in both cases. But the way it the connection works with a tiller is opposite to how it works with a wheel. So you need to turn the you need to turn the rudder. You need to know which way you need to turn the rudder. And it’s always with a tiller. It’s always in the opposite direction to the way you want to go. So that’s, that’s the main difference. Other than the tiller, you feel more of the boat movement through the tiller than you do through the wheel. So it’s more responsive and easier to figure out How? How? How to. You know, move. Move the wheel or the rudder? As opposed to the other boat. So those are the main differences.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Caroline, anything to add?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah, I just in case people don’t know what a tiller looks like, it basically looks like a horizontal stick. Does that sound like a good description, Chris? I was trying to figure out how you describe it.
Chris Jonas: Yeah, it’s a it’s a stick that that runs horizontally. From the from the stern of the boat. Where the where where it connects to the rudder immediately below. And and horizontally. Sorry. Vertically. Getting my directions mixed up vertically across the. No, horizontally. I was right the first time. Horizontally across the boat. So usually when you’re grabbing the tiller, you will grab it at the the end, closer to the middle part of the boat. Or on our boat, we have a, a traveler about a third of the way from the back of the boat and the the tiller goes almost up to where the the traveler is. And, you know, you you. I’m sure you’ll ask later what a traveler is.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m going to ask right.
Chris Jonas: Now and we can tell you, but, you know, it’s it’s used mostly for racing. It’s to fine tune the boat. And but when you’re using the tiller, you’ll use the, the end of the, the the stick that is most forward in the boat. And that gives you better leverage in the boat. It gives you better balance in the boat. And it also, tillers also have something a wheel doesn’t have, which is a tiller extension. Okay, so that is a separate attachment. On the tiller that allows the the helms person if they want. And not all of our members are comfortable with this, but you can use the tiller extension instead of the tiller itself. And that allows you to move higher up on the boats and, and put your weight further to the side of the boat. You’re up higher, closer to the wind. So you feel the wind better. So there’s all kinds of advantages with a tiller extension, but it also takes a little bit of getting used to in order to use it. Effectively.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I owe it to myself to at least come out once or twice to to get familiar with all of this. This is all new stuff to me. I mean, I am a sweet person. I love, I love the the lake, I love the ocean. I love anything to do with water. But this is really incredible.
Chris Jonas: Yeah. You should definitely come out.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to wind down. But you know what? Tell me, how could how could someone who is interested join? Where do they go? How do they get more information? Are you looking for new members?
Karoline Bourdeau: Of course. We’re looking for new members. They can go to blind sailing. And it is our newly redone website. Calendar. Sorry.
Screen Reader: Accessibility meeting today.
Karoline Bourdeau: Sorry about that. That’s okay. And they can look it up there. They’re. Our contact information is right there. They can send an email to info at Blind Sailing and someone will see that. Or they can board members have I think, link contacts on the website as well. They can reach out. And we’re always looking for new members. We’re always looking for volunteers. And skippers, of course.
Chris Jonas: And I was looking for donations.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes, I was going to get to that as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, tell me, do you have any special fundraising events planned? For the near future?
Karoline Bourdeau: Well, this year we’re not going to the boat show because we found over the last couple of years that there aren’t a lot of sailboats. So we’re finding that sailors are not going to the boat show, so we’re going at it a little bit differently. We are just creating a fundraising committee to come up with new things for us to do, but we always take donations through our website we take credit cards and you can actually e-transfer to us at finance. But we are hoping to be out in the community at different events that are hosted by the different sailing clubs and yacht clubs. Because, you know, networking in the sailing community is very important to us. Yeah. And we’d be happy to keep you posted as to new events that come up. We always have a monthly pub night, and people are always welcome to join that. So if you reach out, we’ll let you know where the next one would be. And you’re welcome to come out and meet some sailors.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many members do you have at the present time?
Karoline Bourdeau: I actually looked and I think we have 30 members that are right now and probably the same in crew or a little bit less. But once people have volunteered with us, we, we try not to let them go.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Right, right. Is there anything that either of you would like to share before we end our podcast? And I would like, you know, if you guys wanted to come back at any time because I think, you know, blind sailing, a lot of sighted people say, but blind sailing, how does that how is that? What how can it be? And I think, you know, like, more publicity for blind sailing. I know you do a lot of of publicity already, but I guess because of my interest in wanting to at least try it once or twice. Anything else you’d like to share?
Chris Jonas: I think I think just. And and Caroline again, I think has touched on this, but we do have like the social component is very, a very important aspect of the club. Yeah. And that you know, part of the mandate of blind sailing is, is to increase our members self-confidence, get them out more into the community than maybe they would otherwise have had had an opportunity to do you know, put them in a supportive, friendly environment with, with other sailors that they already know. And our, you know, our pub nights are one such avenue. There’s also other things like dock parties, which are held regularly on board our boats during the course of the summer you know, usually at least once a month. We occasionally would have a destination cruise on our boats to a place like Island Yacht Club and go to their their clubhouse and have lunch there, for example, as, as a whole group of members and volunteers. So just always looking for opportunities to socialize and to integrate members with the broader community. And that is an important mandate, one of the mandates of blind sailing. And I think most members really enjoy the social aspect as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that is terrific. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
Karoline Bourdeau: The one other thing that I think we don’t talk enough about and I know for me it’s been amazing is that the members can also be involved in boat maintenance so they can come out to work parties and, and help prepare the boat for the season, or help to put the boat away for the winter. Occasionally help with repairs. I think those are really good, interesting confidence building skills as well, because, you know, once you’ve repaired a boat or you’ve done work on it, you’ve come a little more familiar with it, maybe you’re more comfortable and you get to know people a bit better. So there are lots of things to do.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But for boat repair, like for someone like me, I probably would be interested in learning more about boat repair. Am I under the guidance of a sighted person?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes, totally.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
Chris Jonas: Yeah. Usually. Usually the club’s fleet manager, Theo would, would be in charge of of that. And it’s not just repair. It’s like there’s all kinds of tasks you can do, like help to to wax the boats, you know, help to, to, to clean them. There’s all kinds of things, you know, putting boat both covers on in the fall and taking them off in the fall. In the. In the spring.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Spring?
Chris Jonas: Yeah. You know, there’s things that you don’t need any real knowledge. You just need to follow instructions. And a lot of that stuff is fairly straightforward, but it’s very important as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So how do I as a potential. Well, sailors where do I start. What do I do. Like do I start with boat repair. Do I start with with what.
Karoline Bourdeau: I would say by by actually.
Chris Jonas: With a sail. I mean that’s probably the starting point for most people. You probably want to do that before you get into, you know, some of the work parties. Yeah. The, the, the working part of it. People, people don’t always want to make the work part of it. And there’s, you know, there is a significant portion that is work and does an incredible job Up coordinating all of that. But, you know, a lot of members just want to come out sailing. And, you know, we have actually probably a very small core group of volunteers and members that will actually come out to the the hard work part of it, but it needs to be done. And, you know the ones that do come out really, really highly appreciated by all because it is so important and so critical for the continued success of the organization.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Does your season start in May?
Karoline Bourdeau: As soon as we can get the boats in the water? Yeah, usually.
Chris Jonas: Usually early May.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Anything else you’d like to share with our listeners? I mean, I think this is a fascinating topic. You know, more people would love to know about blind sailing. And is there anything else you would like to tell us?
Karoline Bourdeau: Just.
Karoline Bourdeau: You gotta try it. That’s the only thing I can say, because we can describe it all you want. And until. But until you feel the boat move and you start to unravel what’s happening and and to learn for yourself, you won’t really understand it.
Chris Jonas: Yeah. A lot of people have an unreasonable fear of sailing because it’s just because it’s something they have no experience in and they don’t know what to expect. But there’s really with our with the blind sailing, there’s really nothing to be afraid of. We have excellent volunteers that will make sure of your safety, that will show you the ropes, so to speak. And you can do as much or as little as you want. You will not be exposed to wind or water conditions that you are not comfortable with, so there’s really nothing to be afraid of. It’s just a really enjoyable experience and and a great thing to try if you’ve never done it before. I mean, it’s something everyone’s got to try at least, you know, once or twice.
Karoline Bourdeau: I’d say that, yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is there a similar program in any of the other provinces?
Karoline Bourdeau: We’re working on that. So we’ve we’ve started a program in Vancouver this year, and I have heard interest from Ottawa and from Halifax. So we’ll be working on those. So, yeah. Coming soon. Hopefully we’ll be everywhere.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Caroline and Chris, it was a pleasure having you today. I mean, I’ve learned so much about tillers and wheels and on starboard and the port and everything like that. I really enjoyed this podcast, and I’d like to invite you to come back at any time. If you think you know there’s a way to publicize what you’re doing. If I can do anything through these podcasts, we have hundreds or thousands of listeners worldwide, so please don’t hesitate to reach out.
Chris Jonas: Will do.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, folks. And you will probably see me. I’m. Knock on wood here next year, at least to try it and see what goes on.
Karoline Bourdeau: That would be wonderful.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much and have a great rest of the day.
Chris Jonas: Yes. Well. Thanks, Donna.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hi, Chris. Hi, Caroline.
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #62: Interview with Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas, Blind Sailing
🎙️ Listen to this Podcast.
In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes blind sailors and leaders Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas from Blind Sailing Canada to demystify what “blind sailing” really looks and feels like. Together they trace Karoline’s journey from clinging nervously to the corner of a boat to becoming an avid racer, and Chris’s perspective as both a competitive helm and long-time volunteer. They vividly describe the sensory world of sailing without sight, tracking the wind by how it hits your face and ears, listening for the changing sound of water on the hull, feeling heel through the tiller, and using the luffing of sails as an audio cue that something needs to be trimmed or adjusted. Along the way they dismantle the idea that sailing is only for the young or athletic, stressing that there’s no real age limit so long as a person has enough strength and agility for the conditions at hand.
Donna then leads a deep dive into how Blind Sailing Canada keeps its seven-day-a-week season running safely and inclusively, from a custom scheduling app and vetted sighted volunteers, to mandatory PFDs, pre-departure safety checklists, and carefully guided first sails that prioritize comfort and confidence. Karoline and Chris explain the contrast between their two boats, the responsive Capri 22 “C-Breeze” with a tiller beloved by racers, and the roomier 27-foot cruiser “Catch the Wind,” and how each teaches different skills and experiences. They talk about teaching new sailors to board safely, offering as much or as little hands-on involvement as someone wants on day one, and why they actually use very little adaptive tech on board, preferring to sail “by feel” with clear verbal communication rather than constant electronic chatter. The conversation ends with an open invitation: anyone curious can join as a member, volunteer, or donor through blindsailing.ca, attend pub nights and dock parties, help with boat maintenance, and, most importantly, come out for that first sail and discover that there is truly nothing to be afraid of on the water.
TRANSCRIPT
Podcast Commentator: Greetings.
Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I’m Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the Landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019. I call it the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I’m not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you’ll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets, lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today’s conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today’s guest changemaker, whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Today, I am pleased to welcome Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas. So, Karoline, welcome to our podcast.
Karoline Bourdeau: Thank you.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right, so I’d like to start things off by having you share the moment that you first realized that blind sailing Could be more than an experience that it could become your sport and your community.
Karoline Bourdeau: Thank you. I’ll start. By the first time I went sailing and I sat in the corner of the boat thinking, I don’t like this. I don’t want to do this. I don’t trust this boat. Oh, no. This is not good. Oh, dear. And then about two years later I had been sailing for a while at that point, and people started saying, you want to race, you should come racing. And I was like, I am not the person you want racing because I don’t know what I’m doing. And so three years ago now I joined a race. Thinking, okay, I’ll try it just because I will try anything once. Almost. And there was something about the concentration, the shared goal, and actually making the quick decisions as you’re at the helm of a boat. That just worked for me. And even though, you know, the first few minutes of a race, I’m all nerves. And I often wonder, why do they let me on these boats? It’s an amazing experience, and I do love it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I could hear in your voice how much you like it, right?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think it’s it’s great that, you know, blind sailing is there for us. As a blind host, I often navigate by sound, touch and clear language. Okay. For those listeners who have never sailed, can you walk us through the sensory feel of a good upwind grove? What you’re listening for, what you’re feeling through the helm and sheets and how you know you’re trimmed, right?
Karoline Bourdeau: Wow. Okay. So the sensory experience on a boat is like no other. There are so many things that you are feeling and listening for on a boat. So the direction of the wind. Where is it? On my face? Where is it coming from? Is it on my ears? How strong is it? Is the boat heeled over like is it? You know, how sideways is it? Chris and I are the same, and we like it really well heeled over. And you hear this if you’re hearing your sails, that’s called luffing. And that is probably meaning that you are not in the in the correct trim. And thankfully we have lovely sighted crew who can correct that for us. Or we can sometimes ask other blind sailors to change something in, in the lines, or sometimes it’s just a simple adjustment that we make at the helm. On the boat with the tiller, you can feel the boat pull sometimes and and sometimes you can adjust you feel that on the wheel as well. But I find that the tiller is way more sensitive and way more responsive than a wheel for me. I don’t know if that answers your question.
Chris Jonas: So I’ll just add add to that, if I may. So the things that Caroline mentioned are, are all accurate. It’s also the, the, the sound of the water as it laps against the hull of the boat. If you if you feel that changing, then you know, something has changed and you need to get back into the groove. And usually you can also tell along with all the other things Caroline mentioned, you can tell by how the water feels against the hull of the boat. And when when Caroline was mentioning the sails luffing that generally means that you’re sailing a little too close to the wind. So the best thing to do in that circumstance is to bear off the wind a little bit, and that usually resolves it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, this sounds really technical to me here. Well.
Chris Jonas: Well, well, some of us, some of us as as you may know, are are quite avid racers as well as recreational sailors. So when you get into racing, you, you kind of get a lot more knowledgeable about how to adjust things and what’s happening out there. It’s it’s a great way to learn more very quickly because you’re in a very competitive environment usually, and you need to make decisions quickly.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Is there an age limit for racing? Like too old, too young, too old?
Chris Jonas: That’s an it’s an interesting question. The short answer is no. There are racers that start like, basically soon after they start walking. I mean, their parents get them into sailing very, very young. And and a lot of those, those parents are racers themselves, so they, you know, they bring their, their, their kids along sometimes in terms of too old as long as, as long as you still have the strength. It’s mostly a question of strength and agility on board, because sometimes you can get into a very rough situations. And if you still have the strength and the agility, like I, I’ve, I’ve raced with someone in his 80s and he was an excellent racer, you know so there’s, there’s no real upper limit. It just it’s, it’s very individual as to how that particular person is feeling and is able to adapt to the weather conditions and the and the racing conditions.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So there may be still hope for me then.
Chris Jonas: Absolutely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
Karoline Bourdeau: Hey, if I got there, you can. Oh.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Lordy, no blind sailing. Canada runs a full Fall in season schedule, often seven days a week from mid-May to mid-October. How do you coordinate boats, weather calls, transportation volunteers, and staff safety so consistently?
Chris Jonas: Well, that’s a loaded question. Do you want to do you want to start answering that, Caroline?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah. And then you can fill in on this. So we we actually have a scheduling website that we call the sailing app, and members, crew and skippers are all signed up for that as soon as they become members or are or have joined us as volunteers. And basically, it’s a lot of it is, you know, a group of people says, I want to sail on Saturday. So they create a sail and now other everyone can join it because they can see it. And we have capacity on the different, the two different boats. So once a sail is full then it kind of disappears from the available sails. And sometimes we end up with the situation where both boats are out at the same time. And that’s wonderful. We love to see that. And we actually do sometimes have a summer student through Canada summer jobs who helps with the coordinating of the different sails. The safety is like, our biggest concern, and our skippers and volunteers and our members actually are really quite careful and very good at learning what needs to be done and how to stay safe. Because safety, learning and fun are our three principles. And we really do enjoy an amazing community that is very aware and very inclusive and the transportation issue a lot of our members use wheel-trans some people carpool. Just depends on the situation, but I’ll tell you, they get there.
Chris Jonas: We also we also have pretty pretty good TTC access through various streetcars that will go very close, at least two different streetcar lines, one, one starting at Spadina station, one starting at Union Station. So it’s actually quite easy to get there if you’re comfortable using TTC. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll add to the the safety question in that we have a very, very extensive volunteer vetting program. So any new volunteer interested in in joining our program must first go out on what we call a vetting sail with an experienced skipper who will assess their their boat knowledge, their sailing ability, just to make sure that they are comfortable both sailing the vessel in a very safe manner and also is comfortable dealing with blind or vision impaired members on board because that’s the environment that they will they will be in when they actually go out on a real sail after they’ve passed the vetting section. So it’s very important that they both know, know their way about a boat, know enough about sailing to be able to handle the boats in all weather conditions safely, and also feel very comfortable communicating with a demographic that they may not previously have had much exposure to, namely the blind community. So we look at every aspect of it, and we’ve had an incredibly successful history in terms of not have I don’t think we’ve ever had any really major accident. We’ve had little, you know, little scrapes and minor accidents here and there that oftentimes is more the result of the weather than anything else. But we’ve done a remarkably good job of keeping all of our members and volunteers safe and also kept our boats away from any truly major damage. So you know, it’s a great program in that regard. As Caroline said, safety is the number one concern. It always has been. And and Bsac or blind sailing has always done, I think, a really, really good job with with that particular aspect of it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where are you guys located? Like where is your base?
Chris Jonas: So it’s Marina Key West, which is in Toronto Harbor between Bathurst and Spadina.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
Chris Jonas: Most people probably get off either, depending on well, most people take wheel-trans, which comes right into the parking lot, so very close to the Marina office. And then we’ll usually have a volunteer meet them at the office and walk them to the boats. If they’re coming by TTC, then you know, if they’re on the Spadina line, they’ll get off at the Queen’s Key stop, which is Queens Quay and Spadina, and it’s an easy walk over from there. Or if they’re on the other line on the Queens Quay line that comes from Union, they’ll get off at Dan Leckie, which is even a little bit closer to the Marina office. So it’s quite accessible in that regard.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Your training pathway is aligned with mainstream standards and adapted for blind and low vision sailors. What does the first lesson look like? What are the first three skills that you teach, and how do you move someone from their first day sail to confidently helming?
Chris Jonas: It’s just it’s just mostly practice, practice, practice, practice. The more exposure you get to it, the more skills you learn, the more comfortable you feel aboard a sailboat, the more your muscle memory kicks in. It’s just it’s just all. It’s just really comes down to time in the boat. And the more you do it, the better you get at it. Just like a lot of a lot of things.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Yeah.
Karoline Bourdeau: Some of us have done some you know, sale Canada training where, you know, we’ve spent time with an instructor on a boat. But it’s not a requirement for our members. You know, most of us just get the experience by being on the boat. And I would say the first lesson just to go back to that is how to get on the boat safely and how to get off the boat safely. Because that’s a huge, I think, point of concern for most of us as new sailors.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for someone like myself who would probably need a refresher course, tell me what? Tell me what the first day would look like for me.
Karoline Bourdeau: So you would be met at the Marina office? And then somebody would walk with you to the dock. You would be guided on to the boat, basically by someone showing you where the stanchion is. Put your hand on the boat and showing you where to step. And basically explaining where are things located on the boat and, you know, telling you where you should be. And then it goes from there. And the first sail is usually like, we try and make it a calm sail where it’s not too windy, not a lot of heel on the boat so you can get to experience whatever you want to do. If you want to try and and see what lines feel like or how it feels to pull a line. Or if you want to get on the helm, you can try that as well. We’ll make sure that we’re in an open space where you can do that. And yeah, and a lot of people love it. They want to come back as soon as you put them on the helm. I think most of them say that. That’s it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I did try it years ago, like I mentioned to you before with Susan and Francis. Maybe next year. I’m not going to promise, but you know. Yeah. No.
Karoline Bourdeau: No.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Safety is foundational, right? What are your pre-departure routines? Okay. Okay. Rolls call and response commands. And how do you brief a brand new sailor so that they are safe and fully participating from the first time? So someone like myself.
Karoline Bourdeau: Chris, do you want to take that on?
Chris Jonas: So. So the first part of that question we do have a checklist, a digital checklist that that every skipper must fill out before leaving the dock. And it is they are required to go through the boat and and check off all of the required safety equipment that must be there. You know, things like a sound device in case you get close to another boat and you have no other way of letting them know that, that you’re on a collision course, and maybe something’s broken on our boat and we can’t get out of their way or they don’t see us. You need a sound device, a device to let them know things like a buoyant, heaving line in case someone falls overboard and you need something that floats, that you can toss out to them, because they may not know where it is, but you can toss it out and say, okay, it’s it’s two feet to your left. Just move to your left a couple of feet and grab it, and then we can pull them back into the boat. You know, things like a flashlight, fire extinguisher. There’s a whole list of, of of safety equipment that must be on board. You know, flares in case you need to send a visual signal so other boats may see where you are if you’re not near to anyone, that sort of thing. There’s a whole list. And we skippers must go through that list. Check off each item in turn and make sure that they’re there before and you know, and submit that. And then they must have that done before they’re allowed to to leave the dock. So and it’s the same on the way back when they’re back in, we must make sure that all of that same equipment is still there and present and in the right place on the, on the boat, so that the next skipper can find it easily. So there’s that. Caroline, do you want to. Yeah. Answer the next part of it.
Karoline Bourdeau: Sure. So it’s a requirement for blind sailing that before the boat leaves the dock that everyone is wearing a a PhD, and you can you can bring your own or you can use one of ours. Our boats have them on board in the different sizes. So basically we make sure the, the new person is fitted properly so that, that it’s not too loose, it’s not going to come off them or not too tight. So they’re uncomfortable. And then like I said before, we try and walk them through the boat to show them where things are, talk to them about what’s going to happen, try to describe to them you know what, What is happening? Like we’re untying the boat right now. You know, we’re going to pull out that sort of thing, and then we’ll just keep them posted as to what is happening and when it’s time that we can put up the sails, we we will ask them if they want to be involved in doing that, helping either tail or or pull lines, depending on, on how you know they’re feeling and their strength or what they think they can do. Some people want to do absolutely nothing the first time. They just want to kind of observe and take it all in. So we’re very flexible as to like what happens on the first day. But everyone is always offering information and guidance, and I think that goes for members and for crew as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do I need to be a good swimmer in order to be able to enjoy fine sailing. I mean, I am a good swimmer, but I’m just curious.
Chris Jonas: No, no. Not necessarily. I mean, you have an a certified PFD personal flotation device, which in the event that you, you fall in the water and are not a good swimmer. Yeah. That will keep you afloat until someone is able to come back and and pull you out of the water. And, you know, sailing is very interesting in that there is a a well known man overboard routine. Yeah. For how to go about returning back to where, you know, the, the person is in the water and, and making sure that they safely get back on board and, you know, it’s, it’s something that every sailor learns. It’s part of the the basic cruising course. If you, if, you know, for those that have have taken that, and a lot of our members actually have. And we we even offer that through our through blind sailing. And we did that for many years. And so a lot of over time, a lot of our, our members already have that course and they know about things like that. But, you know, if you don’t do it frequently then it’s easily forgotten. So it’s more important for the sighted crew to know those skills. And they’re usually more, more adept, and they’re the ones that we would rely on anyway to in that kind of a situation.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let’s talk a bit of tech here. What adaptive tools, audio compasses, talking GPS or smartphone apps do you actually rely on aboard, and what protocols do you use to make sure that information is timely, concise, and useful under load.
Chris Jonas: The. I’ll address that one. The truth is, Donna, that we don’t really rely a great deal on any kind of, you know, audible technology or anything like that. We do have some devices that we use. It’s mostly just for information more than something that our members rely on. For example, there’s something called cell Timer that we have on one of our boats that gives all kinds of really useful information about, you know, what is the wind speed, what is the wind angle to the boat? Right. And if and it will give you you can and you can filter it to give more or less information. So it’ll, it’ll we we usually have just a limited amount of information coming out. Otherwise like it’s constantly babbling because it will always tell you something. And it’s easy to get lost in all of that. But, you know, it’s really useful to know what’s the wind speed and what’s the the angle of the wind to the boat. So if you veer off that angle and you know you want to continue on that angle, then you can kind of turn the boat back to where you were before. And, and, and the sail timer will tell you as you’re getting closer to it.
Chris Jonas: We don’t really use we don’t really use talking compasses though or anything like that.
Karoline Bourdeau: No, I was going to add that, Donna, sailing is something that you really need to do by feel. So as we were talking about before, it’s really important for us to know what the wind is doing, where our boat is and what things we need to do. And we also rely very heavily on our sighted crew to keep us in line. Communication is huge. So everybody on the boat participates in that, And what I love about sailing sometimes it’s how peaceful and quiet it is. I don’t want anything chattering at me. It’s my time to get away from all the things that chatter at me.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Is there such a thing as a talking compass?
Chris Jonas: Yeah. There is. We actually we had a couple at one at one point. I don’t know where they got to over the years, but we never really used them very much so. But there is definitely such a thing. And the ones today are probably more advanced than the ones we had years ago.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m curious to see how it works. I mean, I got a very basic one many, many years ago. I wouldn’t even call it useful. I mean, you pressed a button and it would tell you if you’re facing east or west or north or south, I you know, but I’m curious. I mean, where would I purchase one of these.
Chris Jonas: A talking one? I could I couldn’t even tell you off the top of my head.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Karoline Bourdeau: Show would be a place to look. But also, I actually played with my iPhone as a talking compass.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes.
Karoline Bourdeau: And it works. But again, the problem with it was that it was constantly talking. Every time I adjusted, it adjusted. So.
Screen Reader: You know, I love it.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, that’s the thing with the iPhone. It talks and talks and talks and talks and I mean I agree with you. You know, you go sailing, you want quiet moments. You don’t want people chatting. Not people, but things chatting at you. Right?
Chris Jonas: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You sail and train on two very different boats. The Catalina Capri 22. Yes. Sea breeze Tiller and the 27 foot cruiser. Catch the wind. I like that. And how does each platform teach different skills? And how do you decide which boat is right for a given sailor or session?
Chris Jonas: Caroline. Caroline already touched on that a little bit. You’re right. They are very different experiences. One is five feet longer with a wheel versus a tiller. Caroline talked about how the smaller boat, sea Breeze, is more responsive and and just going by feel. It’s easier to feel the boat movements from the tiller than it is on the larger boat with the wheel. So in terms of what is right for individual members, it’s, it’s it’s really up to the member themselves because some prefer, I would say the majority probably prefer the larger boat because it’s it’s bigger, it’s more comfortable. You know, there’s more room for, you know, for for a dog if you bring it on both above, above deck and below deck. And it’s a, it’s a different it’s a more of a leisurely feel. Whereas the smaller boat we use that for racing and it’s, it’s almost exclusively we use for racing because it’s, it’s designed for that. And we’ve been very successful in our racing program. We race against the totally cited Fleet fleet at National Yacht Club and we do quite well. But but there are, there is the occasional member that actually does prefer the smaller boat just for that reason that they they feel they feel it’s more responsive and they, they’re just more comfortable with that. But the majority prefer the larger boat. But, you know, we, we offer both boats obviously to, to all the members. And it’s really up to them, as I said, to decide which one they prefer.
Karoline Bourdeau: What I for one prefer the smaller boat, but.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. But what’s the difference between a tiller and a wheel? For someone like me who is pretty naive about all of this?
Chris Jonas: So a wheel. A wheel is very similar to an automobile wheel, if you think of that. Yeah. You know, the same shape, the same design. If you want to turn the boat starboard, starboard or right, then you turn the wheel right. If you want to go left, then you, you turn the wheel left. So it’s exactly the same idea as a steering wheel in a car, right? The tiller is the opposite. If you want to go port or left, then you you turn the the tiller in the opposite direction because there is a rudder attached. Well, I mean, there’s a rudder attached in both cases. But the way it the connection works with a tiller is opposite to how it works with a wheel. So you need to turn the you need to turn the rudder. You need to know which way you need to turn the rudder. And it’s always with a tiller. It’s always in the opposite direction to the way you want to go. So that’s, that’s the main difference. Other than the tiller, you feel more of the boat movement through the tiller than you do through the wheel. So it’s more responsive and easier to figure out How? How? How to. You know, move. Move the wheel or the rudder? As opposed to the other boat. So those are the main differences.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Caroline, anything to add?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah, I just in case people don’t know what a tiller looks like, it basically looks like a horizontal stick. Does that sound like a good description, Chris? I was trying to figure out how you describe it.
Chris Jonas: Yeah, it’s a it’s a stick that that runs horizontally. From the from the stern of the boat. Where the where where it connects to the rudder immediately below. And and horizontally. Sorry. Vertically. Getting my directions mixed up vertically across the. No, horizontally. I was right the first time. Horizontally across the boat. So usually when you’re grabbing the tiller, you will grab it at the the end, closer to the middle part of the boat. Or on our boat, we have a, a traveler about a third of the way from the back of the boat and the the tiller goes almost up to where the the traveler is. And, you know, you you. I’m sure you’ll ask later what a traveler is.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m going to ask right.
Chris Jonas: Now and we can tell you, but, you know, it’s it’s used mostly for racing. It’s to fine tune the boat. And but when you’re using the tiller, you’ll use the, the end of the, the the stick that is most forward in the boat. And that gives you better leverage in the boat. It gives you better balance in the boat. And it also, tillers also have something a wheel doesn’t have, which is a tiller extension. Okay, so that is a separate attachment. On the tiller that allows the the helms person if they want. And not all of our members are comfortable with this, but you can use the tiller extension instead of the tiller itself. And that allows you to move higher up on the boats and, and put your weight further to the side of the boat. You’re up higher, closer to the wind. So you feel the wind better. So there’s all kinds of advantages with a tiller extension, but it also takes a little bit of getting used to in order to use it. Effectively.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I owe it to myself to at least come out once or twice to to get familiar with all of this. This is all new stuff to me. I mean, I am a sweet person. I love, I love the the lake, I love the ocean. I love anything to do with water. But this is really incredible.
Chris Jonas: Yeah. You should definitely come out.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to wind down. But you know what? Tell me, how could how could someone who is interested join? Where do they go? How do they get more information? Are you looking for new members?
Karoline Bourdeau: Of course. We’re looking for new members. They can go to blind sailing. And it is our newly redone website. Calendar. Sorry.
Screen Reader: Accessibility meeting today.
Karoline Bourdeau: Sorry about that. That’s okay. And they can look it up there. They’re. Our contact information is right there. They can send an email to info at Blind Sailing and someone will see that. Or they can board members have I think, link contacts on the website as well. They can reach out. And we’re always looking for new members. We’re always looking for volunteers. And skippers, of course.
Chris Jonas: And I was looking for donations.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes, I was going to get to that as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, tell me, do you have any special fundraising events planned? For the near future?
Karoline Bourdeau: Well, this year we’re not going to the boat show because we found over the last couple of years that there aren’t a lot of sailboats. So we’re finding that sailors are not going to the boat show, so we’re going at it a little bit differently. We are just creating a fundraising committee to come up with new things for us to do, but we always take donations through our website we take credit cards and you can actually e-transfer to us at finance. But we are hoping to be out in the community at different events that are hosted by the different sailing clubs and yacht clubs. Because, you know, networking in the sailing community is very important to us. Yeah. And we’d be happy to keep you posted as to new events that come up. We always have a monthly pub night, and people are always welcome to join that. So if you reach out, we’ll let you know where the next one would be. And you’re welcome to come out and meet some sailors.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many members do you have at the present time?
Karoline Bourdeau: I actually looked and I think we have 30 members that are right now and probably the same in crew or a little bit less. But once people have volunteered with us, we, we try not to let them go.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Right, right. Is there anything that either of you would like to share before we end our podcast? And I would like, you know, if you guys wanted to come back at any time because I think, you know, blind sailing, a lot of sighted people say, but blind sailing, how does that how is that? What how can it be? And I think, you know, like, more publicity for blind sailing. I know you do a lot of of publicity already, but I guess because of my interest in wanting to at least try it once or twice. Anything else you’d like to share?
Chris Jonas: I think I think just. And and Caroline again, I think has touched on this, but we do have like the social component is very, a very important aspect of the club. Yeah. And that you know, part of the mandate of blind sailing is, is to increase our members self-confidence, get them out more into the community than maybe they would otherwise have had had an opportunity to do you know, put them in a supportive, friendly environment with, with other sailors that they already know. And our, you know, our pub nights are one such avenue. There’s also other things like dock parties, which are held regularly on board our boats during the course of the summer you know, usually at least once a month. We occasionally would have a destination cruise on our boats to a place like Island Yacht Club and go to their their clubhouse and have lunch there, for example, as, as a whole group of members and volunteers. So just always looking for opportunities to socialize and to integrate members with the broader community. And that is an important mandate, one of the mandates of blind sailing. And I think most members really enjoy the social aspect as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that is terrific. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
Karoline Bourdeau: The one other thing that I think we don’t talk enough about and I know for me it’s been amazing is that the members can also be involved in boat maintenance so they can come out to work parties and, and help prepare the boat for the season, or help to put the boat away for the winter. Occasionally help with repairs. I think those are really good, interesting confidence building skills as well, because, you know, once you’ve repaired a boat or you’ve done work on it, you’ve come a little more familiar with it, maybe you’re more comfortable and you get to know people a bit better. So there are lots of things to do.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But for boat repair, like for someone like me, I probably would be interested in learning more about boat repair. Am I under the guidance of a sighted person?
Karoline Bourdeau: Yes, totally.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
Chris Jonas: Yeah. Usually. Usually the club’s fleet manager, Theo would, would be in charge of of that. And it’s not just repair. It’s like there’s all kinds of tasks you can do, like help to to wax the boats, you know, help to, to, to clean them. There’s all kinds of things, you know, putting boat both covers on in the fall and taking them off in the fall. In the. In the spring.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Spring?
Chris Jonas: Yeah. You know, there’s things that you don’t need any real knowledge. You just need to follow instructions. And a lot of that stuff is fairly straightforward, but it’s very important as well.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So how do I as a potential. Well, sailors where do I start. What do I do. Like do I start with boat repair. Do I start with with what.
Karoline Bourdeau: I would say by by actually.
Chris Jonas: With a sail. I mean that’s probably the starting point for most people. You probably want to do that before you get into, you know, some of the work parties. Yeah. The, the, the working part of it. People, people don’t always want to make the work part of it. And there’s, you know, there is a significant portion that is work and does an incredible job Up coordinating all of that. But, you know, a lot of members just want to come out sailing. And, you know, we have actually probably a very small core group of volunteers and members that will actually come out to the the hard work part of it, but it needs to be done. And, you know the ones that do come out really, really highly appreciated by all because it is so important and so critical for the continued success of the organization.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Does your season start in May?
Karoline Bourdeau: As soon as we can get the boats in the water? Yeah, usually.
Chris Jonas: Usually early May.
Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Anything else you’d like to share with our listeners? I mean, I think this is a fascinating topic. You know, more people would love to know about blind sailing. And is there anything else you would like to tell us?
Karoline Bourdeau: Just.
Karoline Bourdeau: You gotta try it. That’s the only thing I can say, because we can describe it all you want. And until. But until you feel the boat move and you start to unravel what’s happening and and to learn for yourself, you won’t really understand it.
Chris Jonas: Yeah. A lot of people have an unreasonable fear of sailing because it’s just because it’s something they have no experience in and they don’t know what to expect. But there’s really with our with the blind sailing, there’s really nothing to be afraid of. We have excellent volunteers that will make sure of your safety, that will show you the ropes, so to speak. And you can do as much or as little as you want. You will not be exposed to wind or water conditions that you are not comfortable with, so there’s really nothing to be afraid of. It’s just a really enjoyable experience and and a great thing to try if you’ve never done it before. I mean, it’s something everyone’s got to try at least, you know, once or twice.
Karoline Bourdeau: I’d say that, yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is there a similar program in any of the other provinces?
Karoline Bourdeau: We’re working on that. So we’ve we’ve started a program in Vancouver this year, and I have heard interest from Ottawa and from Halifax. So we’ll be working on those. So, yeah. Coming soon. Hopefully we’ll be everywhere.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Caroline and Chris, it was a pleasure having you today. I mean, I’ve learned so much about tillers and wheels and on starboard and the port and everything like that. I really enjoyed this podcast, and I’d like to invite you to come back at any time. If you think you know there’s a way to publicize what you’re doing. If I can do anything through these podcasts, we have hundreds or thousands of listeners worldwide, so please don’t hesitate to reach out.
Chris Jonas: Will do.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, folks. And you will probably see me. I’m. Knock on wood here next year, at least to try it and see what goes on.
Karoline Bourdeau: That would be wonderful.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much and have a great rest of the day.
Chris Jonas: Yes. Well. Thanks, Donna.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hi, Chris. Hi, Caroline.
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
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