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In this episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan …
In this thoughtful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna welcomes Dr. Elizabeth Mohler, newly minted PhD, longtime team member at BALANCE for Blind Adults, and a young leader Donna has known since her earliest days in the field, for a conversation that moves from family kitchen tables in 1980s Brockville to the methodology of critical discourse analysis. Born with congenital glaucoma, Elizabeth walks listeners through her family’s 1987 move to Toronto for services, the formative years she spent at W. Ross MacDonald School for the Blind beginning in grade five (where she found community, learned to cook, and discovered swimming, track, trampoline, and choir), her path as the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier’s Brantford campus, her Master of Science in Occupational Science at Western, and her PhD in Health and Rehabilitation Sciences on a four-year SSHRC doctoral fellowship, including the pilot work she contributed to make the SSHRC application itself accessible to JAWS users.
The second half digs into Elizabeth’s intellectual and professional core. She takes Donna through her doctoral research on Ontario’s Direct Funding program, a critical discourse analysis of 51 program documents that produced “chrono-normative citizenship,” her own term for the way able-bodied notions of time are used to govern disabled people’s care. She shares the dual perspective she carries as a blind adult who also helps support two non-verbal brothers with multiple diagnoses, and makes the case for a more holistic, less binary understanding of caregiving in a country where one in four Canadians is now a caregiver. She traces the origins of her 2016 Elsevier volume Creating a Culture of Accessibility in the Sciences (25 chapters, 200+ citations) and her years at BALANCE for Blind Adults, assistive technology instructor, community engagement lead, accreditation lead, social enterprise team member, and now pre-employment specialist running a five-week Zoom-based program for adults entering or re-entering the workforce. She closes with her hopes for a postdoc co-designing care research with young adults aged 18 to 35 living in long-term care, and a call to embed anti-ableism into the curriculum of every profession that touches disabled lives, teachers, social workers, nurses, doctors, speech-language pathologists.
TRANSCRIPT
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Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just recited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disabled disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I’m not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you’ll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today’s conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today’s guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased. I am proud and I am privileged to introduce to you Elizabeth Mohler. But when I first met her, I knew her as Chelsea. So I hope I do not miss and call her Chelsea. Elizabeth. Welcome.
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here. Donna.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. I always knew that you would be going places. My dear. From the first day I met you, I thought this is our future. And here she is. She’s graduated with her PhD and let’s get going. So, Elizabeth, you were born with congenital glaucoma and grew up in Brockville, Ontario, before your family relocated to Toronto in the 1980s to access services. Can you take our listeners back to those early years and tell us what that journey was like for you and your family, and how it shaped the person that you would become?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, for sure. So my family and I left Brockville in 1987, so I would have been two. So I guess now everybody knows how old I am. That’s right.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Look what you’ve done.
Elizabeth Mohler: That’s right. Yeah. At the time, the community living movement was starting to blossom. You know, deinstitutionalization conversations were happening. But we, my family, I think, knew at the time that the services we would need as a family were going to be in Toronto. So things like Holland Bloorview shout out to Holland Bloorview. I volunteer with them. The hospital for Sick Children. Schools for the the blind as well as other resources. My family sort of unit is comprised of myself. I’m the youngest and I live with almost total blindness. I have two brothers that live with dual diagnosis that are non-verbal. And I have a couple of stepbrothers as well as my brother Kyle and then my, my parents so we’re quite a big family. And so I think, you know, when we moved here in Toronto in the early 90s, like late 80s, really, it was thinking about services. So getting connected with you know, a preschool for the blind things like orientation and mobility. And then later, you know, going, moving from an integrated school where they certainly did their best with programming. But knowing that there was needs and supports outside of the classroom that I would need. So that’s where w Ross McDonald came in. So I, I went to started w Ross McDonald in grade five really to gain expanded core curriculum skills. So like daily living skills, extracurricular activities, music, things I couldn’t maybe gain in a community school in the same way, at least back then. And so that was a really big moment that kind of shaped who I was. I discovered a love for swimming and sports athletics running track and field, trampoline music. You know, I sang in choirs and really began to sort of find myself and who I was. And I stayed at w Ross McDonald until the end of OAC. Again, I’m dating myself. Because that no longer exists.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead.
Elizabeth Mohler: But after that I, I went to Laurier, Brantford, which is a small campus of the main Wilfrid Laurier and Waterloo. At the time I went there was just under 500 students and I was the first student with vision loss. So, you know, I, I think kind of thinking through the years, I think one thread that for me has always been really important is finding my own voice and dependence you know, being able to be a trailblazer. Certainly being the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier in Brantford, you know, I was really instrumental in some of their early accessibility conversations and was proud to do that. So I’ll, I’ll leave that there. But yeah, I think definitely the opportunity to go to a specialized school for, for me was instrumental in helping me become the person I am today.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you said that you attended W Ross MacDonald school for the blind. Starting in grade five.
Elizabeth Mohler: Correct? Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For those listeners who may not be familiar with that school, can you describe what that experience was like and how it influenced your education and your sense of identity as a young person with vision loss?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So W Ross MacDonald is a, is a school for the blind, where folks generally will come during the week and stay in a, in a lodge or a dorm because people come from all over the province of Ontario. I think at one point it was maybe all over Canada, but I, I think that’s no longer. And so really the idea, besides getting a full academic suite of courses is that you’re developing skills like life skills like orientation and mobility. You’re also with peers that also have have some degree of vision loss. So there’s a shared understanding. So it really for me was a place where I found community. You know, I still have some of my closest friends from the school. I think it really helped shape my confidence. You know, when I went to university and I was living in a dorm, it was interesting because in some ways I had more skills than my my sighted classmates who were coming in who maybe had never cooked before or done laundry. I think, you know, for me, again, it really helped me find who I was build community. I think that whether people decide to stay in their local school or whether they decide to attend a specialized schools, very personal. And I think both are right at different times in a person’s life. And I think for me, what made it right was just knowing that there’s things that my family couldn’t necessarily teach me, that I needed to learn to be independent.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you learned to cook while you were at W. Ross McDonald.
Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I’ll have to try this out one of these days
Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Something that really struck me about your story is that you have two brothers who are blind and also live. Live also live with nonverbal autism and other diagnoses. Now, this gives you a perspective that very few people in our field have, and this makes you understand disability both as a person living with it and as a caregiver. How has that dual experience shaped the way you approach your advocacy and your professional work?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, it’s a really important topic. So we know that 1 in 4 Canadians right now is going is, is taking on caregiving work. And that’s, that’s continuing to grow as, as our population ages and lives longer with more complexities. I think what we don’t talk enough about is caregivers who themselves have disabilities. I think sometimes there’s a binary when we think about caregivers you know, there’s the person over here receiving care and there’s a person over here giving care and in, you know, in my PhD work, which we’ll talk more about, I trouble that assumption. Because I don’t think there’s this dualistic caregiver care receiver. I believe we all give and receive care. You know, somebody might be providing physical care to somebody, but that person might make their, their care provider smile or they’re, you know, providing financial support to their care provider. You know, I think that there’s, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done to really look at what we mean by care. And so one of the things that I find is, is challenging in some caregiving spaces is there’s not room for caregivers with disabilities. We don’t talk enough about it And we should, because we know that the population is aging into disability and more and more disabled people are going to find themselves in caregiving roles. And I think that part of the conversation that needs to happen is really, how do we support caregivers who themselves have access needs? So I provide a lot of support you know, not day to day, but sort of on a more administrative level for, for my brothers. And that’s something that when I talk about in caregiving spaces, it’s it’s interesting to have conversations around what access for a caregiver could look like. So I think it’s definitely shaped kind of the things that I become passionate about and that I talk about and study. You know, I think, I think sometimes we conflate providing a service with providing care and I see carers a lot more holistic and something that we all are giving and receiving.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it’s quite another not, I shouldn’t say undertaking, but, you know, a very challenging environment to be in. Right.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. For sure.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your academic path took you from a Bachelor of Arts in Contemporary Studies at Wilfrid Laurier University to a Master of science in Occupational science at Western University, and ultimately to a PhD in health and rehabilitation sciences, all on a prestigious four year’s SHC doctoral fellowship. What a mouthful. For our listeners who may be blind or partially sighted and considering graduate school, what was it like navigating post-secondary education as a person with a visual disability. And what kept you going through all of those years?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I think that, you know, when we think about post-secondary, one of the things that, you know, I always like to talk to folks about is really thinking about understanding, having a really good understanding of what your access needs are, whether it’s technology, whether you know, you need a tenant care or sighted guide, because most people aren’t going to know unless they’re in our field what those needs are and being able to really articulate those needs. I think what’s unique about graduate school is that it isn’t just what you do in the classroom. In fact, a doctoral level, you’re only in your classwork for the first year. Maybe you go to seminar for a couple of additional years, which is essentially once a month, you get together with your colleagues and you talk about your work and you read emerging scholarship and sort of, you know, canonical scholarship in the field and talk about it. But essentially you’re out on your own doing, writing, doing research, going to conferences. So you really need to think about your accommodations in terms of like what you’re going to need in the classroom, but also what you’re going to need beyond that to be successful. So Donna mentioned the four year Social Science Humanities Research Council doctoral fellowship. That’s an award that Masters and PhD students can apply for to help fund their research.
Elizabeth Mohler: So it’s an external it’s through the federal government, through something called the Tri-council agencies. So there’s a web portal you apply through that portal. And then if you’re successful, then you, you receive a scholarship directly to your post-secondary institution. That process for me was not accessible. Back at the back at the time I applied, this was six years ago just for context. They had a lot of drop down menus in their application that jaws wouldn’t read. There was a couple of CAPTCHAs, however. One of the things I did early on was I found an email, which is very hard to do on some of these websites you know, government websites and finally connected with somebody. And I was part of a pilot to try and improve the accessibility of the Tri-council application funding application process. So I was pretty, I was pretty pleased to be a part of that. So I think the thing that I always say to students is there’s a lot of invisible work that goes into being a disabled student, and you need to pace yourself and you need to have community because I think a lot of the times we feel like we have to fix everything and we feel, we feel like we’re kind of we’re working to work. I have a colleague and friend who’s always saying, we’re working to work.
Elizabeth Mohler: And I really like that saying because it’s all the things we have to do just to work. So I think you really need a community of support around you or a coil of support. I like the coil metaphor because it’s multi-layered. It’s multifaceted. It speaks to the different levels and layers of support in your, in your life. And I think that’s really important to have that support. I also think it’s important to acknowledge the emotional labor that students with disabilities take on. But there is, you know, and I think that, and I think that those things are important. And I also think it’s, it’s really important to recognize that there’s also opportunities for leadership. Like these are all skills. When you’re talking about yourself as a student that you can, you can position as leadership skills, as, you know, change management skills as presentation skills, as advocacy and activism skills and experiences. So I think it’s really important to think about everything you’re doing in terms of your skills, because you are going to, you are going to be drawing on those for your whole life. But really to make sure that you build a community around you, that you reach out and ask for help, there’s nothing worse, you know, than getting to the end of a semester and realizing that if you’d had accommodations, things would have worked out.
Elizabeth Mohler: So asking for help right away being proactive and it’s okay if you don’t know what you need. Like when I went into my PhD, we were required to be a TA and I didn’t know how I could proctor. I didn’t know how I could do a scantron. So I wrote a letter to my dean who’s lovely. Shout out to Doctor Shannon Sebold. Explaining here are the things I think I can do. Here are the challenges that I foresee as a TA. I’m really excited about the opportunity to be a part of the learning community at Western. And I’d like to talk with you about whether we can, can work out a placement. And I listed the things I could do. I could run seminars, I could you know, mark essays, I could mark presentations. So I think it sometimes isn’t always about thinking about, you know, what the barriers are, but where are there opportunities and solutions and coming armed with those when you’re, when you’re speaking to people, whether it’s your department chair, your dean, whether you’re speaking to accessibility professionals and just being open because you’re not going to know what you’re going to need right away necessarily. So having those continuous conversations about your accommodations.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you really fascinates me in that all of this is not for the faint of heart. You’ve got to be a go getter. You’ve got to be able to go out there and, and roll with the times. It’s not for the person who is going to sit in the corner and expect everything to be given to them, right?
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have to go out there. You have to forge paths. You have to you literally are on your own a lot of the time. And, and your, your, I wouldn’t say your job, but it’s, you know, you have to convince the sighted world that, hey, I am vision impaired, but you know what? I can do it.
Elizabeth Mohler: Right. Absolutely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Admire anybody like yourself who has been able to go out there, get your PhD, and now, man, you’re our future.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. So your doctoral research examined how Ontario’s direct funding program shapes the way that disabled persons access attendant services, and how service users resist and negotiate those structures. Can you explain for our listeners what direct funding is all about and why it matters so deeply to people with disabilities, and what the research uncovered about how the system actually works in practice?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So Ontario direct funding. So here in Ontario, there’s a program called Ontario Direct Funding which essentially gives individuals with physical disabilities who qualify and are approved money to recruit and hire and train and onboard their own personal support workers or attendants. So it was really direct funding is based off the heels of the independent living movement in the 60s and 70s, which asserted that people with disabilities wanted to have control and autonomy over their own care. And so many centers for independent living around the world exist to promote that. So my work actually used something called critical discourse analysis, which really looks at how language and power are interconnected, how language is used to shape how we might look at a phenomenon or a concept like disability, and the ways in which equity and justice are reproduced or not through discourse and text. So critical discourse analysis sort of falls on the heels of discourse analysis of linguistics. And uses a lot of critical scholars like Norman Fairclough and Michel Foucault, Michel Foucault, who I took up in my work, as well as Shelley Tremain, who are kind of critical scholars that look at power. So my work actually ended up I didn’t actually, for my project talk to service users of the program. I looked at program texts, specifically 51 program documents that were acquired using a strategic search strategy. And then took each document through an analytic guide and then built for discursive threads based on the results of the analytic guides. After I’d put them into an Excel spreadsheet and looked across for themes and threads. So for discursive threads emerged, which really had to do with one that’s my favorite is a term that I coined called chrono normative citizenship, which really kind of, when you break it down, chrono time normative and then citizenship.
Elizabeth Mohler: So this really talked about how disabled people are expected to conform to a very able bodied notions and structures of time and how people are expected to break down their care routines and show exactly how much time they’re going to need for their care routines in ways that can be very invasive, and specifically looking at how time is used as a governing mechanism to a lot or control care and how people, you know, how techs really look at producing time as you know, the, the less time you need for your care, the better. So very much, you know, in line with sort of capitalist notions of like, you know, we don’t, we don’t want people taking too much or using too much from the system. You know, I’m kind of really putting this into plain language, but I really like the way that this notion of time operated through my dissertation. So I, I really found for, for my dissertation, I was fascinated with the methodology of critical discourse analysis. I really wanted to sort of understand what was happening in these texts. As someone that lives with a disability and has done quite a bit of work in this field. I’m always fascinated by how disability is produced and reproduced through language, how we see disability, how disability is constructed. And I really wanted to explore that. So that’s kind of you know, in a nutshell, what my, what my PhD looked at. And it emerged over time, I was in the beginning going to talk to service users and attendants of the program. But as I dove into my coursework and really started to ask deeper questions, this, the critical discourse analysis was sort of the methodology that I chose to, to carry out my work.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I don’t know what else to say here. Now in 2016, you and Doctor Mahadeo Sagi, I hope I’m pronouncing his name correctly. Co-authored a landmark book published by Elsevier called Creating a culture of accessibility in the sciences. That is a 25 chapter volume that has been cited over 208 times, including in publications like Nature Reviews Chemistry. What inspired you to write that book, and why is accessibility in Stem such a critical issue that needed a resource of that scale?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So at the time I was working with Doctor Tzu Chi at the National Educational Association of Disabled Students, and we were working on some practical guides that could be used for faculty and teaching assistants around how to support students with disabilities in science labs and in other practical spaces. So when I say practical spaces, I mean co-op placements, work placements, work integrated learning. You know, the Mahadeo is, is a geneticist and has a lot of experience, extensive experience in science and was really interested in this topic. I was interested more from the perspective of the practical spaces piece. I had applied to a professional program in 2012 or sorry, 2010 that I got into, but ultimately decided not to pursue because at the time the, the program chair was very concerned about how would carry out the co-op placements of someone who was blind. And so at the time, I didn’t sort of push, I just applied to ultimately to Western where I did my master’s. But that was what sparked my interest in co-authoring the book. And also hearing many stories through my work at the National Educational Association of Disabled students from students with disabilities navigating sort of the practical spaces that accompany the classroom learning.
Elizabeth Mohler: So that book really came out of you know, those, those conversations. And I also want to acknowledge there was many contributors as well to the book who wrote about their own experiences in quite a lot of detail. So it was a wonderful way to connect with different faculty. So I think, I think why it’s important is I, there’s a lot of, I think we don’t know what we don’t know. And I think the book does a really nice job of unpacking. What are some of the concerns around being in the lab? We have a lot of conversations in the book around bona fide essential requirements. So, you know, what is the ultimate requirement of a course of an assignment? Can it be done in only one way? If so, why? If not, why not? So there was a lot of conversations around disclosure, which is another topic that I’ve written extensively about. So I think it was an opportunity to talk about Stem or now we would say Stem science, technology, engineering, arts and math. But also to talk about these conversations more broadly. And it really, I think, sparked my interest in disability activism in writing. And ultimately the career path I took.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Balance for blind adults in Toronto has been a real anchor in your career. You have held so many roles there as assistive technology instructor for one community. Community engagement lead as an accreditation lead, social enterprise team member, and now pre employment specialist. Can you walk our listeners through what balance does and why that organization has been so important to you personally and professionally. And I do remember the late Tom Dekker. That’s how I met him through balance.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. Absolutely. So balance for blind adults is not for profit here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. That provides support to adults living with who are blind or living with low vision or partially sighted in a range of areas. So balance has a large assistive technology program, so providing supports to individuals who wish to learn whether it’s a screen reader or magnification or learn how to use their laptop for work. Our assistive assistive technology program is, you know, available in person to folks that live in Toronto and then Ontario wide to folks who are outside of Toronto and want remote lessons or able to have remote lessons. Balance also provides orientation and mobility as well as adaptive daily living skills, but also has a large suite of group programs, including a strength and stability class a number of programs to do with mental health support. So there are two social workers that have lived experience of disability who run peer support programs and individual counseling. So that’s a huge part of what balance does. You know, of course, there’s the pre-employment program, which is the program I run. And ultimately that program aims to provide individuals that want to start looking for work, the skills to do so.
Elizabeth Mohler: So we prepare people to start looking for work, to think about starting to work with an employment service provider. Our curriculum is really built around helping individuals get to know themselves, get to know their skills, learn the technology that they’re going to need to be successful in the workplace, as well as connect to community resources and employment service providers. So our program is a five week program. It’s on Zoom. And individuals who are thinking about entering the workforce, or maybe re-entering the workforce that want to build some of those pre-employment skills. You know, are welcome to join the program right now. It’s in the GTA, but we’re hoping to expand the program. I think for me, one of the things that I love to see is somebody that comes in is unsure of what they want to do as, as an individual living with blindness or partial sight. And then at the end of the program has a really good sense of the path they want to take.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: His balance, a provincial organization or national.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So right now, balance for blind adults offers in-person support in, in Toronto for orientation and mobility, assistive technology, adaptive daily living skills, as well as our groups that we have. We have a number of groups Ontario wide for mental health supports. So that would be, you know, our peer support program called Sharing Spaces, as well as counseling, individual counseling, and then assistive technology. So those are the two supports that are offered sort of province wide and they would be remote offerings.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is balance planning to go national one day?
Elizabeth Mohler: I don’t know. You’ll have to stay tuned. No.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I always I’ve always wondered this, you know, like you offer a plethora of services and you know, it’ll be nice to see you go national one day.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, as an assistive technology instructor at balance. Okay. You know, tell us about some of the things that, that you’ve, you’ve done and, you know, things that you would like to see continue on.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I’ve taught, you know, a lot of people who are new to whether it’s an iPhone or a smart home device or a laptop. New to it as somebody with sight loss. So they might have, they might have used technology prior to sight loss and then they’re coming back to it. I think for me, what I love is those moments where somebody gets really excited, they see the potential of technology, they are starting to understand how they might use it in their daily lives, or they’ve gone from sort of being afraid of making a mistake to recognizing that they can troubleshoot their way out of a mistake. What I love to see is the excitement because there is so much potential, as we know, for technology use not just for folks with disabilities, but more broadly. And I’d love to see conversations happening where people are really excited about the technology that they’re using because it is a game changer. We know that technology is a game changer for for our community. Absolutely. But again, it comes back to being able to talk about our technology, what we need and understand how, how what we need you know, is impacted in our daily lives.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, if you could dream and look forward to the future, I know that one of the things that that really bothers me or concerns me or something I’m continuing to work on is access. Access to online education, online exams. What are your thoughts on this?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, the online world and we we saw this during the pandemic really opened up opportunities for people to engage with whether it’s post-secondary, whether it’s employment, whether it was you know, volunteer or training opportunities. I think one of the. Yeah, for sure. One of the biggest barriers remain sort of accessibility to, to content. I feel hopeful, though. I think there’s a lot more conversations, whether it’s because of the Accessible Canada Act or here in Ontario. You know, we know that the the Aoda has been around for 20 plus years, and there’s still a ways to go, but I am seeing more conversations. So, for example, at Western where where I just finished my PhD, there’s been a lot of conversations around how to build accessibility into course content online, into classroom design, into learning module design. So I’m starting to see those conversations and I’m hopeful. And I think a lot of it is, is really thinking about taking a universal design approach. So building things in from the start that are going to impact and benefit everybody. I do think that online learning, like Open University, for example, is a, a great, a great resource for people that want to take any number of courses online and you can do it from anywhere. But I think, again, it’s important to recognize that, you know, online learning is one approach and it works for some people and not for others. So I, I think that it’s really about thinking holistically about the learner and about the learning experience.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because one size does not fit all. It doesn’t mean because you or I, you know, are able to deal with a cell phone, for example, that Eleanor next door should be able to do the same. You know, like she may be afraid, she may she may be saying to herself, oh, this is not for me. It’s too intimidating. Right?
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So with the clock winding down, my final question to you is this what are your hopes and dreams for the future with regard to a education? And I think you’ve answered a lot of that before and be accessible services for those needing it.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. We’ll start with the education. My hopes and dreams for the future. I’d like to apply for a postdoc. You know, within a disability studies program or one adjacent to a health and rehab science program. I’d like to do some co-design work to look at the experiences of young adults. So 18 to 35 with disabilities residing in long term care, and how individuals that are residing in these spaces who are young adults might reimagine their care and how those individuals share their care story and how we can learn from their care stories. So doing some co-design work with that community. And we’re seeing there was a report that came out from the Ontario Ombudsman in December that talked about the number of young adults with with physical disabilities in long term care, as well as intellectual disabilities. And it’s a population that’s very near and dear to my heart because of my own family and something I want to explore. So I will be applying for postdocs and you know, hoping for a positive outcome in terms of accessibility for services. Like I think it’s such a broad question, but I think what I would say is I wish that there was more. And I’m glad to see some, but I hope it continues education around disability, around systemic ableism, institutional ableism within post-secondary curriculum. So whether that’s in education for teachers, whether that’s for social workers, whether that’s for nurses and doctors and speech language pathologists. So not just looking at this contract construct of disability as something that needs to be fixed or cured, but really embedding sort of anti ableism work into curriculum. And that’s what I’m passionate about and that’s what I hope to see.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now. Do you think your your future studies would, you know, have you stay in Canada or do you think you might have to travel across the pond?
Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I definitely plan to stay here in Toronto. I have my community here, my coil of support here, and I love Toronto. But the wonderful thing is, you know, there’s a number of post-secondary institutions, obviously right here within Toronto, but also, you know, adjacently close. So if I had to take a train, it wouldn’t be wouldn’t be too bad. I mean, I commuted to London during my my PhD and it wasn’t too bad. So yeah, that’s my plan for now. I think I’ll be staying staying in Toronto.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But what if someone offered you a golden opportunity to study across the pond? Would you go?
Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I hadn’t, you know, not one I’d thought of. I think I’d have to consider. There’s a lot of factors to consider with, with moving anywhere and yeah, I would have to really look at the opportunity and you know, the, the length and just where I’m at in my own, my own career journey.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you’re not adverse to, to really, you know, like, if you were given this wonderful opportunity and I know that, you know, there’s so many other factors for you to consider. Would you go?
Elizabeth Mohler: I might, yeah, I might.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, this has been a very fascinating interview and one where I’m hoping and I know that our listeners would be very much encouraged, motivated to reach for the stars because you’ve reached for the stars, you’ve done it. You’re on your way. You are future. You keep it up. And it was a pleasure, real pleasure having you.
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you for having me, and I hope you have a lovely rest of your day.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too, and good luck with your board interview tonight.
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, take care now.
Elizabeth Mohler: Bye bye.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
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Turning policy into progress for people with disabilities.
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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #88: Interview with Elizabeth Mohler, Ph.D. Researcher, Educator, Advocate, Scholar, Speaker
🎙️ Listen to this Podcast.
In this episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan …
In this thoughtful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna welcomes Dr. Elizabeth Mohler, newly minted PhD, longtime team member at BALANCE for Blind Adults, and a young leader Donna has known since her earliest days in the field, for a conversation that moves from family kitchen tables in 1980s Brockville to the methodology of critical discourse analysis. Born with congenital glaucoma, Elizabeth walks listeners through her family’s 1987 move to Toronto for services, the formative years she spent at W. Ross MacDonald School for the Blind beginning in grade five (where she found community, learned to cook, and discovered swimming, track, trampoline, and choir), her path as the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier’s Brantford campus, her Master of Science in Occupational Science at Western, and her PhD in Health and Rehabilitation Sciences on a four-year SSHRC doctoral fellowship, including the pilot work she contributed to make the SSHRC application itself accessible to JAWS users.
The second half digs into Elizabeth’s intellectual and professional core. She takes Donna through her doctoral research on Ontario’s Direct Funding program, a critical discourse analysis of 51 program documents that produced “chrono-normative citizenship,” her own term for the way able-bodied notions of time are used to govern disabled people’s care. She shares the dual perspective she carries as a blind adult who also helps support two non-verbal brothers with multiple diagnoses, and makes the case for a more holistic, less binary understanding of caregiving in a country where one in four Canadians is now a caregiver. She traces the origins of her 2016 Elsevier volume Creating a Culture of Accessibility in the Sciences (25 chapters, 200+ citations) and her years at BALANCE for Blind Adults, assistive technology instructor, community engagement lead, accreditation lead, social enterprise team member, and now pre-employment specialist running a five-week Zoom-based program for adults entering or re-entering the workforce. She closes with her hopes for a postdoc co-designing care research with young adults aged 18 to 35 living in long-term care, and a call to embed anti-ableism into the curriculum of every profession that touches disabled lives, teachers, social workers, nurses, doctors, speech-language pathologists.
TRANSCRIPT
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Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just recited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disabled disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I’m not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you’ll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today’s conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today’s guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased. I am proud and I am privileged to introduce to you Elizabeth Mohler. But when I first met her, I knew her as Chelsea. So I hope I do not miss and call her Chelsea. Elizabeth. Welcome.
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here. Donna.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. I always knew that you would be going places. My dear. From the first day I met you, I thought this is our future. And here she is. She’s graduated with her PhD and let’s get going. So, Elizabeth, you were born with congenital glaucoma and grew up in Brockville, Ontario, before your family relocated to Toronto in the 1980s to access services. Can you take our listeners back to those early years and tell us what that journey was like for you and your family, and how it shaped the person that you would become?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, for sure. So my family and I left Brockville in 1987, so I would have been two. So I guess now everybody knows how old I am. That’s right.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Look what you’ve done.
Elizabeth Mohler: That’s right. Yeah. At the time, the community living movement was starting to blossom. You know, deinstitutionalization conversations were happening. But we, my family, I think, knew at the time that the services we would need as a family were going to be in Toronto. So things like Holland Bloorview shout out to Holland Bloorview. I volunteer with them. The hospital for Sick Children. Schools for the the blind as well as other resources. My family sort of unit is comprised of myself. I’m the youngest and I live with almost total blindness. I have two brothers that live with dual diagnosis that are non-verbal. And I have a couple of stepbrothers as well as my brother Kyle and then my, my parents so we’re quite a big family. And so I think, you know, when we moved here in Toronto in the early 90s, like late 80s, really, it was thinking about services. So getting connected with you know, a preschool for the blind things like orientation and mobility. And then later, you know, going, moving from an integrated school where they certainly did their best with programming. But knowing that there was needs and supports outside of the classroom that I would need. So that’s where w Ross McDonald came in. So I, I went to started w Ross McDonald in grade five really to gain expanded core curriculum skills. So like daily living skills, extracurricular activities, music, things I couldn’t maybe gain in a community school in the same way, at least back then. And so that was a really big moment that kind of shaped who I was. I discovered a love for swimming and sports athletics running track and field, trampoline music. You know, I sang in choirs and really began to sort of find myself and who I was. And I stayed at w Ross McDonald until the end of OAC. Again, I’m dating myself. Because that no longer exists.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead.
Elizabeth Mohler: But after that I, I went to Laurier, Brantford, which is a small campus of the main Wilfrid Laurier and Waterloo. At the time I went there was just under 500 students and I was the first student with vision loss. So, you know, I, I think kind of thinking through the years, I think one thread that for me has always been really important is finding my own voice and dependence you know, being able to be a trailblazer. Certainly being the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier in Brantford, you know, I was really instrumental in some of their early accessibility conversations and was proud to do that. So I’ll, I’ll leave that there. But yeah, I think definitely the opportunity to go to a specialized school for, for me was instrumental in helping me become the person I am today.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you said that you attended W Ross MacDonald school for the blind. Starting in grade five.
Elizabeth Mohler: Correct? Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For those listeners who may not be familiar with that school, can you describe what that experience was like and how it influenced your education and your sense of identity as a young person with vision loss?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So W Ross MacDonald is a, is a school for the blind, where folks generally will come during the week and stay in a, in a lodge or a dorm because people come from all over the province of Ontario. I think at one point it was maybe all over Canada, but I, I think that’s no longer. And so really the idea, besides getting a full academic suite of courses is that you’re developing skills like life skills like orientation and mobility. You’re also with peers that also have have some degree of vision loss. So there’s a shared understanding. So it really for me was a place where I found community. You know, I still have some of my closest friends from the school. I think it really helped shape my confidence. You know, when I went to university and I was living in a dorm, it was interesting because in some ways I had more skills than my my sighted classmates who were coming in who maybe had never cooked before or done laundry. I think, you know, for me, again, it really helped me find who I was build community. I think that whether people decide to stay in their local school or whether they decide to attend a specialized schools, very personal. And I think both are right at different times in a person’s life. And I think for me, what made it right was just knowing that there’s things that my family couldn’t necessarily teach me, that I needed to learn to be independent.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you learned to cook while you were at W. Ross McDonald.
Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I’ll have to try this out one of these days
Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Something that really struck me about your story is that you have two brothers who are blind and also live. Live also live with nonverbal autism and other diagnoses. Now, this gives you a perspective that very few people in our field have, and this makes you understand disability both as a person living with it and as a caregiver. How has that dual experience shaped the way you approach your advocacy and your professional work?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, it’s a really important topic. So we know that 1 in 4 Canadians right now is going is, is taking on caregiving work. And that’s, that’s continuing to grow as, as our population ages and lives longer with more complexities. I think what we don’t talk enough about is caregivers who themselves have disabilities. I think sometimes there’s a binary when we think about caregivers you know, there’s the person over here receiving care and there’s a person over here giving care and in, you know, in my PhD work, which we’ll talk more about, I trouble that assumption. Because I don’t think there’s this dualistic caregiver care receiver. I believe we all give and receive care. You know, somebody might be providing physical care to somebody, but that person might make their, their care provider smile or they’re, you know, providing financial support to their care provider. You know, I think that there’s, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done to really look at what we mean by care. And so one of the things that I find is, is challenging in some caregiving spaces is there’s not room for caregivers with disabilities. We don’t talk enough about it And we should, because we know that the population is aging into disability and more and more disabled people are going to find themselves in caregiving roles. And I think that part of the conversation that needs to happen is really, how do we support caregivers who themselves have access needs? So I provide a lot of support you know, not day to day, but sort of on a more administrative level for, for my brothers. And that’s something that when I talk about in caregiving spaces, it’s it’s interesting to have conversations around what access for a caregiver could look like. So I think it’s definitely shaped kind of the things that I become passionate about and that I talk about and study. You know, I think, I think sometimes we conflate providing a service with providing care and I see carers a lot more holistic and something that we all are giving and receiving.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it’s quite another not, I shouldn’t say undertaking, but, you know, a very challenging environment to be in. Right.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. For sure.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your academic path took you from a Bachelor of Arts in Contemporary Studies at Wilfrid Laurier University to a Master of science in Occupational science at Western University, and ultimately to a PhD in health and rehabilitation sciences, all on a prestigious four year’s SHC doctoral fellowship. What a mouthful. For our listeners who may be blind or partially sighted and considering graduate school, what was it like navigating post-secondary education as a person with a visual disability. And what kept you going through all of those years?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I think that, you know, when we think about post-secondary, one of the things that, you know, I always like to talk to folks about is really thinking about understanding, having a really good understanding of what your access needs are, whether it’s technology, whether you know, you need a tenant care or sighted guide, because most people aren’t going to know unless they’re in our field what those needs are and being able to really articulate those needs. I think what’s unique about graduate school is that it isn’t just what you do in the classroom. In fact, a doctoral level, you’re only in your classwork for the first year. Maybe you go to seminar for a couple of additional years, which is essentially once a month, you get together with your colleagues and you talk about your work and you read emerging scholarship and sort of, you know, canonical scholarship in the field and talk about it. But essentially you’re out on your own doing, writing, doing research, going to conferences. So you really need to think about your accommodations in terms of like what you’re going to need in the classroom, but also what you’re going to need beyond that to be successful. So Donna mentioned the four year Social Science Humanities Research Council doctoral fellowship. That’s an award that Masters and PhD students can apply for to help fund their research.
Elizabeth Mohler: So it’s an external it’s through the federal government, through something called the Tri-council agencies. So there’s a web portal you apply through that portal. And then if you’re successful, then you, you receive a scholarship directly to your post-secondary institution. That process for me was not accessible. Back at the back at the time I applied, this was six years ago just for context. They had a lot of drop down menus in their application that jaws wouldn’t read. There was a couple of CAPTCHAs, however. One of the things I did early on was I found an email, which is very hard to do on some of these websites you know, government websites and finally connected with somebody. And I was part of a pilot to try and improve the accessibility of the Tri-council application funding application process. So I was pretty, I was pretty pleased to be a part of that. So I think the thing that I always say to students is there’s a lot of invisible work that goes into being a disabled student, and you need to pace yourself and you need to have community because I think a lot of the times we feel like we have to fix everything and we feel, we feel like we’re kind of we’re working to work. I have a colleague and friend who’s always saying, we’re working to work.
Elizabeth Mohler: And I really like that saying because it’s all the things we have to do just to work. So I think you really need a community of support around you or a coil of support. I like the coil metaphor because it’s multi-layered. It’s multifaceted. It speaks to the different levels and layers of support in your, in your life. And I think that’s really important to have that support. I also think it’s important to acknowledge the emotional labor that students with disabilities take on. But there is, you know, and I think that, and I think that those things are important. And I also think it’s, it’s really important to recognize that there’s also opportunities for leadership. Like these are all skills. When you’re talking about yourself as a student that you can, you can position as leadership skills, as, you know, change management skills as presentation skills, as advocacy and activism skills and experiences. So I think it’s really important to think about everything you’re doing in terms of your skills, because you are going to, you are going to be drawing on those for your whole life. But really to make sure that you build a community around you, that you reach out and ask for help, there’s nothing worse, you know, than getting to the end of a semester and realizing that if you’d had accommodations, things would have worked out.
Elizabeth Mohler: So asking for help right away being proactive and it’s okay if you don’t know what you need. Like when I went into my PhD, we were required to be a TA and I didn’t know how I could proctor. I didn’t know how I could do a scantron. So I wrote a letter to my dean who’s lovely. Shout out to Doctor Shannon Sebold. Explaining here are the things I think I can do. Here are the challenges that I foresee as a TA. I’m really excited about the opportunity to be a part of the learning community at Western. And I’d like to talk with you about whether we can, can work out a placement. And I listed the things I could do. I could run seminars, I could you know, mark essays, I could mark presentations. So I think it sometimes isn’t always about thinking about, you know, what the barriers are, but where are there opportunities and solutions and coming armed with those when you’re, when you’re speaking to people, whether it’s your department chair, your dean, whether you’re speaking to accessibility professionals and just being open because you’re not going to know what you’re going to need right away necessarily. So having those continuous conversations about your accommodations.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you really fascinates me in that all of this is not for the faint of heart. You’ve got to be a go getter. You’ve got to be able to go out there and, and roll with the times. It’s not for the person who is going to sit in the corner and expect everything to be given to them, right?
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have to go out there. You have to forge paths. You have to you literally are on your own a lot of the time. And, and your, your, I wouldn’t say your job, but it’s, you know, you have to convince the sighted world that, hey, I am vision impaired, but you know what? I can do it.
Elizabeth Mohler: Right. Absolutely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Admire anybody like yourself who has been able to go out there, get your PhD, and now, man, you’re our future.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. So your doctoral research examined how Ontario’s direct funding program shapes the way that disabled persons access attendant services, and how service users resist and negotiate those structures. Can you explain for our listeners what direct funding is all about and why it matters so deeply to people with disabilities, and what the research uncovered about how the system actually works in practice?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So Ontario direct funding. So here in Ontario, there’s a program called Ontario Direct Funding which essentially gives individuals with physical disabilities who qualify and are approved money to recruit and hire and train and onboard their own personal support workers or attendants. So it was really direct funding is based off the heels of the independent living movement in the 60s and 70s, which asserted that people with disabilities wanted to have control and autonomy over their own care. And so many centers for independent living around the world exist to promote that. So my work actually used something called critical discourse analysis, which really looks at how language and power are interconnected, how language is used to shape how we might look at a phenomenon or a concept like disability, and the ways in which equity and justice are reproduced or not through discourse and text. So critical discourse analysis sort of falls on the heels of discourse analysis of linguistics. And uses a lot of critical scholars like Norman Fairclough and Michel Foucault, Michel Foucault, who I took up in my work, as well as Shelley Tremain, who are kind of critical scholars that look at power. So my work actually ended up I didn’t actually, for my project talk to service users of the program. I looked at program texts, specifically 51 program documents that were acquired using a strategic search strategy. And then took each document through an analytic guide and then built for discursive threads based on the results of the analytic guides. After I’d put them into an Excel spreadsheet and looked across for themes and threads. So for discursive threads emerged, which really had to do with one that’s my favorite is a term that I coined called chrono normative citizenship, which really kind of, when you break it down, chrono time normative and then citizenship.
Elizabeth Mohler: So this really talked about how disabled people are expected to conform to a very able bodied notions and structures of time and how people are expected to break down their care routines and show exactly how much time they’re going to need for their care routines in ways that can be very invasive, and specifically looking at how time is used as a governing mechanism to a lot or control care and how people, you know, how techs really look at producing time as you know, the, the less time you need for your care, the better. So very much, you know, in line with sort of capitalist notions of like, you know, we don’t, we don’t want people taking too much or using too much from the system. You know, I’m kind of really putting this into plain language, but I really like the way that this notion of time operated through my dissertation. So I, I really found for, for my dissertation, I was fascinated with the methodology of critical discourse analysis. I really wanted to sort of understand what was happening in these texts. As someone that lives with a disability and has done quite a bit of work in this field. I’m always fascinated by how disability is produced and reproduced through language, how we see disability, how disability is constructed. And I really wanted to explore that. So that’s kind of you know, in a nutshell, what my, what my PhD looked at. And it emerged over time, I was in the beginning going to talk to service users and attendants of the program. But as I dove into my coursework and really started to ask deeper questions, this, the critical discourse analysis was sort of the methodology that I chose to, to carry out my work.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I don’t know what else to say here. Now in 2016, you and Doctor Mahadeo Sagi, I hope I’m pronouncing his name correctly. Co-authored a landmark book published by Elsevier called Creating a culture of accessibility in the sciences. That is a 25 chapter volume that has been cited over 208 times, including in publications like Nature Reviews Chemistry. What inspired you to write that book, and why is accessibility in Stem such a critical issue that needed a resource of that scale?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So at the time I was working with Doctor Tzu Chi at the National Educational Association of Disabled Students, and we were working on some practical guides that could be used for faculty and teaching assistants around how to support students with disabilities in science labs and in other practical spaces. So when I say practical spaces, I mean co-op placements, work placements, work integrated learning. You know, the Mahadeo is, is a geneticist and has a lot of experience, extensive experience in science and was really interested in this topic. I was interested more from the perspective of the practical spaces piece. I had applied to a professional program in 2012 or sorry, 2010 that I got into, but ultimately decided not to pursue because at the time the, the program chair was very concerned about how would carry out the co-op placements of someone who was blind. And so at the time, I didn’t sort of push, I just applied to ultimately to Western where I did my master’s. But that was what sparked my interest in co-authoring the book. And also hearing many stories through my work at the National Educational Association of Disabled students from students with disabilities navigating sort of the practical spaces that accompany the classroom learning.
Elizabeth Mohler: So that book really came out of you know, those, those conversations. And I also want to acknowledge there was many contributors as well to the book who wrote about their own experiences in quite a lot of detail. So it was a wonderful way to connect with different faculty. So I think, I think why it’s important is I, there’s a lot of, I think we don’t know what we don’t know. And I think the book does a really nice job of unpacking. What are some of the concerns around being in the lab? We have a lot of conversations in the book around bona fide essential requirements. So, you know, what is the ultimate requirement of a course of an assignment? Can it be done in only one way? If so, why? If not, why not? So there was a lot of conversations around disclosure, which is another topic that I’ve written extensively about. So I think it was an opportunity to talk about Stem or now we would say Stem science, technology, engineering, arts and math. But also to talk about these conversations more broadly. And it really, I think, sparked my interest in disability activism in writing. And ultimately the career path I took.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Balance for blind adults in Toronto has been a real anchor in your career. You have held so many roles there as assistive technology instructor for one community. Community engagement lead as an accreditation lead, social enterprise team member, and now pre employment specialist. Can you walk our listeners through what balance does and why that organization has been so important to you personally and professionally. And I do remember the late Tom Dekker. That’s how I met him through balance.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. Absolutely. So balance for blind adults is not for profit here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. That provides support to adults living with who are blind or living with low vision or partially sighted in a range of areas. So balance has a large assistive technology program, so providing supports to individuals who wish to learn whether it’s a screen reader or magnification or learn how to use their laptop for work. Our assistive assistive technology program is, you know, available in person to folks that live in Toronto and then Ontario wide to folks who are outside of Toronto and want remote lessons or able to have remote lessons. Balance also provides orientation and mobility as well as adaptive daily living skills, but also has a large suite of group programs, including a strength and stability class a number of programs to do with mental health support. So there are two social workers that have lived experience of disability who run peer support programs and individual counseling. So that’s a huge part of what balance does. You know, of course, there’s the pre-employment program, which is the program I run. And ultimately that program aims to provide individuals that want to start looking for work, the skills to do so.
Elizabeth Mohler: So we prepare people to start looking for work, to think about starting to work with an employment service provider. Our curriculum is really built around helping individuals get to know themselves, get to know their skills, learn the technology that they’re going to need to be successful in the workplace, as well as connect to community resources and employment service providers. So our program is a five week program. It’s on Zoom. And individuals who are thinking about entering the workforce, or maybe re-entering the workforce that want to build some of those pre-employment skills. You know, are welcome to join the program right now. It’s in the GTA, but we’re hoping to expand the program. I think for me, one of the things that I love to see is somebody that comes in is unsure of what they want to do as, as an individual living with blindness or partial sight. And then at the end of the program has a really good sense of the path they want to take.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: His balance, a provincial organization or national.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So right now, balance for blind adults offers in-person support in, in Toronto for orientation and mobility, assistive technology, adaptive daily living skills, as well as our groups that we have. We have a number of groups Ontario wide for mental health supports. So that would be, you know, our peer support program called Sharing Spaces, as well as counseling, individual counseling, and then assistive technology. So those are the two supports that are offered sort of province wide and they would be remote offerings.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is balance planning to go national one day?
Elizabeth Mohler: I don’t know. You’ll have to stay tuned. No.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I always I’ve always wondered this, you know, like you offer a plethora of services and you know, it’ll be nice to see you go national one day.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, as an assistive technology instructor at balance. Okay. You know, tell us about some of the things that, that you’ve, you’ve done and, you know, things that you would like to see continue on.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I’ve taught, you know, a lot of people who are new to whether it’s an iPhone or a smart home device or a laptop. New to it as somebody with sight loss. So they might have, they might have used technology prior to sight loss and then they’re coming back to it. I think for me, what I love is those moments where somebody gets really excited, they see the potential of technology, they are starting to understand how they might use it in their daily lives, or they’ve gone from sort of being afraid of making a mistake to recognizing that they can troubleshoot their way out of a mistake. What I love to see is the excitement because there is so much potential, as we know, for technology use not just for folks with disabilities, but more broadly. And I’d love to see conversations happening where people are really excited about the technology that they’re using because it is a game changer. We know that technology is a game changer for for our community. Absolutely. But again, it comes back to being able to talk about our technology, what we need and understand how, how what we need you know, is impacted in our daily lives.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, if you could dream and look forward to the future, I know that one of the things that that really bothers me or concerns me or something I’m continuing to work on is access. Access to online education, online exams. What are your thoughts on this?
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, the online world and we we saw this during the pandemic really opened up opportunities for people to engage with whether it’s post-secondary, whether it’s employment, whether it was you know, volunteer or training opportunities. I think one of the. Yeah, for sure. One of the biggest barriers remain sort of accessibility to, to content. I feel hopeful, though. I think there’s a lot more conversations, whether it’s because of the Accessible Canada Act or here in Ontario. You know, we know that the the Aoda has been around for 20 plus years, and there’s still a ways to go, but I am seeing more conversations. So, for example, at Western where where I just finished my PhD, there’s been a lot of conversations around how to build accessibility into course content online, into classroom design, into learning module design. So I’m starting to see those conversations and I’m hopeful. And I think a lot of it is, is really thinking about taking a universal design approach. So building things in from the start that are going to impact and benefit everybody. I do think that online learning, like Open University, for example, is a, a great, a great resource for people that want to take any number of courses online and you can do it from anywhere. But I think, again, it’s important to recognize that, you know, online learning is one approach and it works for some people and not for others. So I, I think that it’s really about thinking holistically about the learner and about the learning experience.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because one size does not fit all. It doesn’t mean because you or I, you know, are able to deal with a cell phone, for example, that Eleanor next door should be able to do the same. You know, like she may be afraid, she may she may be saying to herself, oh, this is not for me. It’s too intimidating. Right?
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So with the clock winding down, my final question to you is this what are your hopes and dreams for the future with regard to a education? And I think you’ve answered a lot of that before and be accessible services for those needing it.
Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. We’ll start with the education. My hopes and dreams for the future. I’d like to apply for a postdoc. You know, within a disability studies program or one adjacent to a health and rehab science program. I’d like to do some co-design work to look at the experiences of young adults. So 18 to 35 with disabilities residing in long term care, and how individuals that are residing in these spaces who are young adults might reimagine their care and how those individuals share their care story and how we can learn from their care stories. So doing some co-design work with that community. And we’re seeing there was a report that came out from the Ontario Ombudsman in December that talked about the number of young adults with with physical disabilities in long term care, as well as intellectual disabilities. And it’s a population that’s very near and dear to my heart because of my own family and something I want to explore. So I will be applying for postdocs and you know, hoping for a positive outcome in terms of accessibility for services. Like I think it’s such a broad question, but I think what I would say is I wish that there was more. And I’m glad to see some, but I hope it continues education around disability, around systemic ableism, institutional ableism within post-secondary curriculum. So whether that’s in education for teachers, whether that’s for social workers, whether that’s for nurses and doctors and speech language pathologists. So not just looking at this contract construct of disability as something that needs to be fixed or cured, but really embedding sort of anti ableism work into curriculum. And that’s what I’m passionate about and that’s what I hope to see.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now. Do you think your your future studies would, you know, have you stay in Canada or do you think you might have to travel across the pond?
Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I definitely plan to stay here in Toronto. I have my community here, my coil of support here, and I love Toronto. But the wonderful thing is, you know, there’s a number of post-secondary institutions, obviously right here within Toronto, but also, you know, adjacently close. So if I had to take a train, it wouldn’t be wouldn’t be too bad. I mean, I commuted to London during my my PhD and it wasn’t too bad. So yeah, that’s my plan for now. I think I’ll be staying staying in Toronto.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But what if someone offered you a golden opportunity to study across the pond? Would you go?
Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I hadn’t, you know, not one I’d thought of. I think I’d have to consider. There’s a lot of factors to consider with, with moving anywhere and yeah, I would have to really look at the opportunity and you know, the, the length and just where I’m at in my own, my own career journey.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you’re not adverse to, to really, you know, like, if you were given this wonderful opportunity and I know that, you know, there’s so many other factors for you to consider. Would you go?
Elizabeth Mohler: I might, yeah, I might.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, this has been a very fascinating interview and one where I’m hoping and I know that our listeners would be very much encouraged, motivated to reach for the stars because you’ve reached for the stars, you’ve done it. You’re on your way. You are future. You keep it up. And it was a pleasure, real pleasure having you.
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you for having me, and I hope you have a lovely rest of your day.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too, and good luck with your board interview tonight.
Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, take care now.
Elizabeth Mohler: Bye bye.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
Global Leader In Disability Rights, Digital Accessibility, And Inclusive Policy Reform
Turning policy into progress for people with disabilities.
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Published in Remarkable World Commentary