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In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Hayley, a 15-year-old blind advocate from the UK who runs a podcast, an accessibility campaign and a youth magazine, and whom Donna calls probably her youngest guest yet. Hayley explains that she was born sighted, that with her condition, Stargardt’s, her sight can never become zero, and that she wants sighted people to understand that blindness has a range: “Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing.” She describes her podcast, Beyond Vision, which she started so people can learn about blind lives without having to ask, and guests such as Lord David Blunkett and Daniel Kish, whose words that independence is also a form of freedom she now carries into her own presentations.
Hayley then tells the story behind her Tactile Map Accessibility Project: at a residential camp, when she was about 10, she pulled a rope in a disabled toilet out of curiosity and set off the emergency alarm. Her maps show where everything in a toilet is, the emergency cord included, with braille labels and a QR code that plays an audio guide, and she gives the design and toolkit away for free. She says her petition has reached around 1,044 signatures, that her school was the first to have the maps made, and that she plans to approach Surrey County Council. Donna closes by inviting Hayley to join the team behind her Believing is Achieving camps for young people.
TRANSCRIPT
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I’m Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I’m not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you’ll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today’s conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today’s guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and privileged and extremely excited to welcome to our show today probably the youngest guest that I have had thus far. Hayley Zia, welcome to my show.
Hayley: Donna, it’s such an honor to be invited by you. Thank you for having me.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you for being here. And you know what? When we had our interview last Tuesday, I said to myself, “This is our future, and if we could get 10 other people like you with your enthusiasm, your excitement, and your commitment, our future is in great hands.”
Hayley: You’re very kind.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] All right. Hayley, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary. At just 15 years old, you are already running a podcast, an accessibility campaign, and a youth magazine. And for listeners meeting you for the first time, who is Hayley, and how would you describe the work that you do?
Hayley: Well, I am 15 years old, and I am legally blind. I am an avid accessibility advocate for the visually impaired people, and I want to campaign for greater accessibility and independence and just confidence, as well as raising more awareness for the blind community and the visually impaired community. I am also an avid reader of Jane Austen. Absolutely love her books. And I am somewhat of a untalented musician, shall we say. Where I play the piano somewhat and the violin, and I love singing, although I’m not quite sure how much my neighbors like to hear me sing.
Hayley: How to describe myself and my work, it would be, I started my work due to mainly curiosity, and some would say I’m a bit too ambitious and just stubborn. I’m very stubborn, and when people say that it is quite the ambition to start a magazine, I think about it and I think, “Well, why don’t we try?” The internet is amazing now. You can reach people from all around the world. As I’m talking to you from the UK now, and you’re in Canada. And so you can always make, for example, a magazine international.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do your parents say to you about all of this?
Hayley: I think initially, my parents and I never expected, or at least I don’t think they expected, I definitely didn’t expect myself to start a magazine, run a podcast, start Accessibly campaigns. I have always been really outspoken. Too talkative sometimes. Gets me in a bit of trouble. Gets me in a bit of trouble, seriously. My parents, they’re very supportive. They’re very supportive.
Hayley: They are the people telling me to go out there, dream bigger, and they feel that my campaign so far, this journey towards advocacy, meeting other blind people who are so successful, so inspirational, and it teaches me a lot. For this journey I’ve only started for a few months, but I’ve definitely gone across a few challenges, uncertainties. So I think they think it’s a really good lesson for me to learn outside. It’s out of school. It’s not academic. And I can learn what I’m doing in the real world. Because I feel like school’s very important, but it’s very different to what I’m learning right now, aside from school. And I would say some teachers don’t know if I’m focusing more on my academic studies or my projects.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. Okay. Nothing wrong with that. No.
Hayley: I mean, it’s a little bit concerning. [laughs]
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in your feature for Narratives Unseen, you wrote a line that has stayed with me, and it is, “Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing.” Unquote. What did you want sighted readers to understand when you wrote it, and which misconceptions about blindness do you most want to correct?
Hayley: Well, firstly, this quote, “Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing,” resonates with me a lot because I am not completely blind. I did not know about this until I met fellow blind people in my high school that I go to currently. I learned this about five years ago. Because I was born sighted, fully sighted until six. And then I only started using a cane when I was 11. And I fully started using Braille when I was about 10, in the last year of primary school. So I didn’t know a lot of things about blindness, and I thought it was darkness as well.
Hayley: And until one time we had an inclusivity assembly on disability week. And I decided to represent the disability society, if you call it, in my school. And I read something out in assembly, and one of the things my fellow classmates wrote about was blindness sometimes is nothing instead of darkness. It’s, for example, you can’t see out of your fingertips. Which is not always understandable, I think. So this is really important to me because I think a lot of the times people think darkness is blindness, blindness is darkness. Whereas sometimes blindness is just nothing. You can’t see out of your nose. [laughs]
Hayley: What I want sighted readers to understand the most, misconceptions about blindness is—one of the things is that a lot of the time people ask me, “Oh, how did you see that chair?” Because I can see a little bit, as I mentioned. I use a white cane all the time, constantly. Except when I’m at home, [laughs] obviously. And in class I sometimes walk around chairs, or there’s a bag on the floor and I manage to lift my foot off the ground. I sometimes see it, sometimes I don’t, but sometimes I do. And my classmates are all very shocked. They’re like, “How did you see it?”
Hayley: I’m saying there are large printers in my school, don’t get me wrong. But they think people with a white cane just can’t see at all. People with a white cane have lower vision, but sometimes they can still see. Sometimes they can see a chair. Sometimes they can see a foot, so never stick your foot out and trip them over. [laughs] Not that I have experienced that, but it’s not always a good idea ’cause they might be able to see a foot and stamp on it. And that would be what I would be tempted to do. [laughs]
Hayley: But yeah, I think that’s the biggest misconception, that blindness has a range. And for my disease, Stargardt’s, it can never become zero. There’s a large difference between having no visual perception compared to having a very, very small percentage, like 0.000001. You’ll still see a few shadows. So that’s the difference really, I think, for misconceptions.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I will share with you that I was born with very little vision, so I could see certain little things like colors and so, but they were all blurred. And then when I was in my late teens, I had a cornea transplant that changed my world completely. I learned to read and write and do all kinds of things, and my world changed. But then about 15 years ago, I lost most of it, so now I’m almost totally blind, so I think I know what you’re telling me here. Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let’s talk about your podcast, Beyond Vision. What inspired you to start your own interview show, and what do you hope listeners, blind and sighted alike, would take away from each episode?
Hayley: So my podcast, Beyond Vision, began in, I believe, June or July, I cannot remember, and what inspired me to start it was how, over the course of my blindness, especially in the last five years, a lot of people approach me tentatively. I’ve known them for three or four years, teachers, students, or just people in public that I know, and they all are very careful about asking me how I became blind, what it’s like to be blind, how much I can see. They’re very tentative about it. I understand that sometimes people don’t wanna talk about blindness and how they became blind, because they don’t feel comfortable with it. But I feel like the public should be able to learn more about blind experiences. They’re often very curious, and they’re nervous to ask blind people. So I thought, why not create a podcast where you don’t need to ask blind people?
Hayley: There is this information out there, and you can just go listen to it yourself. Each person, just as any other person who’s not blind, has their own life, has their unique experiences, and you can listen to people with amazing careers, experiences, inspirational advice, lives, on the podcast, and that’s what the podcast aims to do, and that’s what really inspired me to start the interview shows. And over the course of just a few months of podcasting, I met so many amazing people that I never knew existed. I always knew there were two or three blind people in the world that were incredible, extremely intelligent, quite famous. But until I began my podcast and I started doing lots of research, even yesterday I was talking to my mom, and we were discussing how in the world there are so many opportunities and so many things we don’t know about, including blind people with pioneering careers and achievements.
Hayley: So for example, I research into all categories, into politics, sports, music, academics, and in your case, I went into law as well. I interviewed you recently. And Lord Blunkett, for example, I had on the show a few months ago. I found his story very inspirational. Before his political career, he had to get his degree by himself. And I just also spoke to Daniel Kish, who created World Access for the Blind. And his accessibility and his way of navigation, and obviously I spoke to you, and I saw how determined you are, dedication, to fighting the accessibility for the websites in the Canadian government. So the podcast hasn’t only really raised awareness of blind people and educated the public, it’s really educated me as well. And so that’s what’s driving me towards the journey towards keep going, basically continuing my podcast journey, and I’m very looking forward to what will happen in the future. So yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If I had a crystal ball, young lady, I would say you are destined for big things. And I mean it, and I’m so impressed with what you’ve done so far. As in just a few months, you have interviewed guests ranging from fellow teenagers to Lord David Blunkett, the former Home Secretary, and Daniel Kish, the ecological pioneer, if I pronounced that correctly. [laughs] How do you choose your guests, and how did you find the courage to approach people of that stature as a young host? And I will tell you, I don’t think I would have had the nerve to do it, but tell us.
Hayley: Well, how do I choose my guests? I chose you because you made such an achievement by fighting the court case over a period of more than six years, facing the appeal, facing all the stress of it, and also determination and the gap you saw in the accessibility features in Canada. And so I chose you as one of the guests purely because of that. And how I feel like everyone I’ve invited onto the podcast so far, one key feature is that they’re incredibly resilient. Incredibly resilient. And I really admire each and every one of you that has gone on the podcast. And so as you mentioned just now, Lord Blunkett—he is an amazing politician. He went through 9/11, the Twin Towers, he had to navigate that. Daniel Kish is just incredible. I don’t know how he manages. He does tongue clicks, and he echolocates. So he uses sound waves that bounce off surfaces to know where he is. So that is very interesting.
Hayley: And I think how I approach them, well, the beauty of technology, although I have to say I’m not very good at using technology, but I can send emails. And the beauty of technology is that I can approach anyone across the world. My podcast, it’s gonna feature people from Australia, comedians. It’s gonna feature academics, professors from different universities, authors, sports athletes, musicians from all different types of industries. And I approach them because of the admiration of their career, really. And I kind of get the courage. I’m always nervous when I reach out to people, when I’m talking to someone. But when you hear their amazing story, you kind of forget, and you’re just in the zone of talking to them in the podcast. So before the recording, I’m just a bit uncertain. I’m like, “Oh, what have I gotten myself into? What did I do? Why did I email them?”
Hayley: And then after, when I get to speak to them, they’re all very, very nice. You were so nice to me when you spoke to me as well after the recording. And it’s really just mainly, you’re all very kind, very supportive, even though I understand that when I first began, not that I’ve begun for very long, but I had minimal credibility, not a lot of credibility, because people didn’t really know who I was then. People might think I’m a scam. And so I’m really grateful for people who have believed in a random 15-year-old who’s appeared on their email inbox and asks to be interviewed, and they’ve agreed. And so I find that really encouraging, and that’s really what brings me towards emailing the next person and the next one and the next one.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Have you found any barriers to the fact that you are so young, or do you tell people your age?
Hayley: Oh, yes. I make sure to tell people my age, because I don’t wanna give people surprises. [laughs] Can you imagine? [laughs] If I just appear on the podcast or my Tactile Map Accessibility Project in my presentations, and I’m just a 15-year-old girl, I think that would give them quite a shock. But definitely, as a young campaigner, I look at it through two ways. One way, they’re like, oh, it’s a youth-led podcast. Maybe they’re more reluctant. But another way, I like to be optimistic. I like to believe that maybe they will help me. Like you, you mentioned in my podcast that your campaign is to help the future generation, the children, to do what you are doing right now. And so I’m really grateful, really, to all of them who have believed in me, believed in a 15 years old girl appearing on their email inbox and asking for an interview when they’re extremely busy doing their own accessibility campaigns or advocacy work, or they are just their incredible careers.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That’s true. But like I said, you have impressed me with the way at 15 years old, to have had Daniel Blunkett on your podcast. My God, that is a coup, a real coup, you know?
Hayley: Yes. Actually, to this day, I’m not quite sure why he agreed to my podcast. But it is very, very kind of him. It is very kind of him.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And of all the conversations that you have had on Beyond Vision so far, which story or lesson has stayed with you the most? And has any guest changed the way you think about your own future?
Hayley: Wow, this is a hard question. All my guests have put me in awe. They have enabled me to see the potential ahead, the missing gap in my journey that I could still fill. There’s so much I can do in the future, and they have enabled me to see that. And they’re really, all of you on my podcast, stand as role models to me. But I think one of the lessons or thought processes that really resonated with me was Daniel Kish, when he said, “Independence is… There can never be too much accessibility. What is accessibility? Independence is also a form of freedom.” And I recently adopted that and taken it to my tactile map presentations when I present to venues from all over the world. And I emphasize to them, the Tactile Map Project is not only a form of accessibility feature, but it is also a form of freedom.
Hayley: Being able to navigate a toilet by yourself, I think, is one of the most important things I could wish for, and hopefully what other people would wish for.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That’s a very good way of looking at it, and I agree with you. I do. I understand your Tactile Map Accessibility Project grew out of a very personal experience in an accessible toilet [laughs] when you accidentally set off the emergency alarm. Please share that story with our listeners, and tell us how it became the spark for your campaign.
Hayley: Well, as you mentioned, there’s an emergency cord, alarm attached to that story. So when I was about, let me think, when I was about 10 years old or 11, 10 years old, I think, I enrolled in a residential camp, and there was a disabled toilet, and no one described the toilet to me. I mean, I don’t really blame them. Before that incident, or indeed until this year, I never realized anyone ever described the toilet to me until my mom told me that she did it every time I went in the toilet. But what happened was I was feeling around, trying to find my way around. And I felt a thin piece of rope and being curious, or maybe I don’t wanna be curious sometimes now, but I pulled on it. I was like, “What will it do? What will it do?” Like, “Come on, let’s try it out.”
Hayley: [laughs] And then nothing happened, which was very odd, so I moved along. I was like, “Okay, nothing happened. Sure.” And then two minutes later, I heard banging on the door. They were like, “Hayley, Hayley, what’s wrong? What’s wrong?” They were all panicking, and everyone was at my door, and I was like, “What’s happened? What’s happened?” I was like, “What?” And then apparently they told me to never mind and asked if I was all right, and then afterwards, apparently the entire common room, so about 30 kids in the common room, could hear the alarm going off from my bathroom. But I couldn’t hear it from my bathroom. I don’t know why. But that led me to be very embarrassed, and I thought, why don’t you change an embarrassment to something more, maybe more practical. Change it somehow.
Hayley: I only started the tactile map recently, and that was five years ago, but between the five years, I’ve also experienced other times where I didn’t know where the flush was. So I want to find the flush in the toilet, not even an accessible toilet, just a toilet, because not all venues have accessible toilets. And I try to find it, and I end up hitting my cheekbone and getting a bruise or getting hurt or just saying, “Ouch,” really loud, which is really awkward. And you don’t always wanna feel around because it’s not very nice, and you don’t know where the flush is. I always ask myself, is it a sensor? Well, is it a push? Is it a lever? Where do I push? Which way does it go? Where’s the toilet paper? Which one is the dryer? And also, where is the sink? Because now that technology has improved, you can never find where anything is, because everything’s hidden, and you just scan it. I can’t scan if I can’t see it. So, yeah, that’s the story.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I’ll tell you, a few months ago I was in the UK, and I was in a train station with my aunt, and I wanted to go to the bathroom, and I did, but like you, I felt this rope. I went, “What the hell is this? Is this the flusher? Is it… What the…” So I pulled it. And the next thing you know, banging at my door, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” And then the guy was just laughing. He said, “I had a feeling that you would pull that because you wanted to know what it was.” So, I mean, join the club, you know?
Hayley: Yeah, I’ve heard of other people’s stories where they don’t know, two buttons side by side, which one’s the flush. They push one of them, off it went. And also recently, I was talking to someone actually yesterday, and they were talking about how one time they were entering an airport, and both of them were blind. They have a staff member with them. And the staff member sent them into an accessible changing room without a toilet. But the staff member didn’t know, and each of them went in by themself. They couldn’t find a toilet, and they came back out. Wouldn’t tell anyone, so the other friend went back in a changing room. Couldn’t find a toilet and came back out, and so they had to hold it, and they never told the staff ’cause they were too embarrassed.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. That’s not good. Now, for listeners who have never come across one, what exactly is a tactile toilet map, and how does a blind person use it before stepping into the room?
Hayley: So a tactile map is a design where there are labels in braille and tactile lines showing where the door is. There’s a opening gap where the toilet is, and where the dryer is. Where is the toilet paper? Where is the sink? Where is the soap? Where is the flush, obviously, and what kind of flush it is, and most importantly, I made sure to include where the emergency cord is. And the thing is, before I started this campaign, I didn’t know that every single bathroom had a emergency cord in it. I didn’t even really think about if there was an emergency cord in it. I think it’s more of a truth that is not spoken, but known. But sighted people don’t always realize, because blind people sometimes don’t know some of the most obvious things in daily life, such as an emergency cord existing in a accessible toilet. Well, certainly I wouldn’t have exactly thought about it, and if I needed to push that thing, I wouldn’t know where it was, what it looked like, or what happens if—I don’t know what I would have done if I don’t know where the emergency cord was. So that is essentially what a tactile map is.
Hayley: But recently, I have also developed an additional thing on my website, which is adding an audio guide. So as well as tactile map, it’s in a QR code. And because I promote my tactile maps mainly to public venues like museums, zoos, theaters from all around the world, tourists come, and they speak different languages. So audio guides can give different languages. And also, not everyone knows how to read braille. Some people have deteriorating sight later in life, and audio guides might help them. Some people can’t read braille, audio guides might help them. Or you can read braille with a tactile map and the audio guide at the same time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that’s a great idea. I never even thought of that, but yeah. Yes. Now, here in Canada, our transportation regulator has fined several major airports for failing to provide tactile and braille signage to the areas that guide dogs users need. So your work resonates far beyond the UK. What would you say to building managers, airports, and businesses anywhere in the world who believe that a small accessibility fix is not worth the effort?
Hayley: I think this is certainly a very important question you’ve asked, and I thank you for asking. One thing I’ve found is, my own philosophy is that I don’t think anyone doesn’t think accessibility is worth the effort. I think everyone at heart are very kind, and they all seek to be more inclusive. Very encouraging to me, at least, when I speak to the venues. I’ve had very positive feedback. In terms of if they would be reluctant, I think, well, if you’re reluctant, be nosy. Because if other venues have, let’s say, my tactile map, and you look around at other venues, you’ll see how it works. And if then you’re interested, feel free to come. I could talk to you, and we can work stuff out from there. Be nosy, I always think. If other people have accessibility features, stay open-minded.
Hayley: But the problem with open-mindedness is that you won’t know if you’re not open-minded, if you’re absent-minded, because you don’t know yourself. And so my theory is just be nosy. Just look around at other people. Look at fellow airports. Look at fellow venues, and see what they’re doing. [laughs] Catch up with the latest. Even though if you’re not planning to do it, you can always be nosy, and just look around. Keep on the latest. Accessibility is never not worth it. It is merely a question of time.
Hayley: Sometimes venues have other things to prioritize. But certainly, I would really appreciate it if they would, when they have the time, reach out to me, which a lot of venues have said that they are quite busy right now, but would love to talk in half a year time. And they have set dates, they have set committee times where they would discuss it later this year or next year. And this really means a lot, because it doesn’t mean they’re not thinking it’s worth it. It’s merely that they’re very busy with other accessibility features that are maybe equally important. But they’re also keeping an open mind, keeping a open eye, and making sure that they are kept to the latest accessibility features. What I have found with Canada so far is that they are very, very encouraging to me. They have been very inclusive. I have a couple of venues I’m going to be speaking to and presenting to in Canada. So I think in Canada, it’s quite inclusive.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that comment. [laughs] Now, you have chosen to give your design, fitting guidance, and toolkit away for free. And your petition even tells supporters that you are not asking for donations. Why was it so important to you that anyone, anywhere can use your work without cost of permission?
Hayley: So ever since I can remember, I am only 15, but ever since I can remember, I’ve always been really inclined towards charitable works. And I never knew what I could do to actually contribute. Yes, I make donations to different venues, or I ask my parents to make donations, really. [laughs] But I never thought, “What could I actively do to contribute, to make a more positive impact in society, in the world?” And I never knew that, but apparently I’ve been told that I’ve always been a strong advocate for myself when it comes to inadequate support or accessibility, I think much to the annoyance of everyone else.
Hayley: And so [laughs] what I think is important is that my work is nonprofit. It’s to help the accessibility features. It’s to help the blind and visually impaired community. I’m not here to sell anything. I’m here merely to provide an idea, and hope that through my efforts I can encourage more venues to install tactile maps or audio guides to their toilet facilities. And I hope that increases independence, freedom, help along the way for accessibility, and I’m really very excited to see where that will go in a couple of years’ time. Because I see amazing feedback right now, and I’m really excited to see what will happen in the next week, the next month, the next year, in five years, in 10 years. I want to see how this project will go. It’s not about monetizing it. My petition is to garner support, to raise awareness, and money has never really gone into the topic. I am providing venues with ideas, and I’m gonna be really grateful to them if they take it on.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You don’t get too many young people of your age, and I’m not going to stress that your age. [laughs] But too many youngsters don’t think that way, and this is something I really wish that we could see more of, you know? People thinking, “I’m not in it for the money.” But then again, someone is gonna say to us, “Well, I need the money,” right? So it’s a balance there. I know for me, I’ve always been one to give. I think it’s important. As long as I’m able to give, I will give. Because it’s the only way that I think we can build our future in a better way. Right?
Hayley: Yes, and I think that is really important as well. That’s kind of what is bringing me towards what I’m doing right now, like podcasting and my Tactile Map Project, where people are giving in the time for me to interview them to show other people and myself their own inspirational careers, their admirable personalities and characteristics and traits, their dedication. And it’s really kind of them to respond to me, and to respond to me to talk about their experiences, and it’s nonprofit as well. My podcast is nonprofit. And it is really towards helping and making a more positive contribution to society, and that’s what my aim is.
Hayley: And if anyone ever approaches me with a nonprofit initiative, I think I would love to have a look at it and definitely see what we could do to move it on forwards. Because every day when I wake up, it’s really my incentive to wake up now to look at my emails. Otherwise I’ll be staying in bed because it’s too cold. To look at my emails and see who’s emailed me, who’s agreed to my podcast. And in the evening before bed, I look at my phone and I see emails and emails from people, and I’m like, it makes my day. It absolutely makes my day.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your petition has been closing in on its first goal of 1,000 signatures, and your next step is to take it to your school’s leadership, to the Surrey County Council. What has it been like to campaign for change as a teenager, and what would success look like for you over the coming year?
Hayley: Well, I checked today. We have reached around 1,000 and, let me think, 44 signatures, which I’m very pleased with. I’m very grateful for all the support everyone’s giving out. People I’ve emailed, venues I’ve emailed, all signed my petition, showing their support. In terms of school, my school has been the first venue, if you call it, to manufacturing my tactile maps. They were the first to help me at really the push towards… I had this idea. They were the final push to manufacturing two tactile maps for my school, because we have two accessibility toilets. And I’m very grateful to them because some of my teachers at school are absolutely amazing. They brought me to the Rotary Club to give a speech there, which is also featured on my website, https://tactilemapproject.org, where I spoke about my project and garnered everyone’s support, and they were very kind about it. They asked me questions, and it’s just helping me build this confidence and network of people I can reach out to.
Hayley: So in terms of school, I think it’s going the right way. They are looking always to improve the accessibility features, because I go to a visually impaired unit. My school has a visually impaired unit in it, so we have about 12 young people in there who are partially sighted or blind or large printers and braillists. And in terms of Surrey County Council, I’m definitely looking at emailing them about this project, seeing if we can get some installed in town centers, shopping centers, theaters nearby. And I think Surrey has always been a very inclusive society. We’re very close, all of us. And so I think that will go in a very correct direction, very right direction, positive direction really.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m going to close this interview with an offer I’d like to make to you. I’ve been working on a project called Believing is Achieving, and what it is, it is hosting camps for kids who are about ready to leave high school and those who are entering the workplace for the first time. And I say to them, “Believing is achieving. If you cannot believe, you cannot achieve. And in order to believe, you have to start off with a dream, a desire, an aspiration, something like that, right?” Once you have that in your mind, your dream, your aspiration, your belief, your desire, we can go to the next point, but you can’t go there unless this first block is met.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The next thing is to help them develop their independence, because independence is freedom, and their confidence, and then I will show them how to build virtues that will enhance their personal and professional profiles. And finally, I will help them to discover the pitfalls that they should avoid. This camp, Believing is Achieving, has legs. When I say legs, I mean it has potential. And the first thing that we’re gonna be doing is I’m working with the Independent Living Canada organization to host a week… Well, I call it a weekend camp, but it’ll be more than a weekend, in Quebec next year. I’d like to invite you to be a part of our team when we are a bit further ahead. You never know if such a camp could take off in the UK. I don’t see why it cannot take off anywhere. If you’re interested, let me know, and I’ll send you more information.
Hayley: Well, firstly, I think it’s such a good initiative really, and I’m sure it will take off anywhere you put it because it’s such a good—it’s so important really right now. I certainly know some charities I’m in contact with who talk to the young people who are looking to go into work or move on from high school, and I’m sure people in the United Kingdom would be very interested to contribute and come and join.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So in the coming weeks, I will set something up for you. Now, which is the best time to catch you? ‘Cause you’ll be five hours ahead of me as of next week. [laughs]
Hayley: Yes. Well, I am mostly free on weekends. I sleep at 11. And let me think. Oh, well, I’ve got school. That’s the problem.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, we could do it on a weekend. I mean, I’m very, very flexible.
Hayley: If you don’t mind working on a weekend. [laughs]
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I don’t. I work on the weekend all the time, so.
Hayley: Well, that’s brilliant. Yes. Well, how does this work? Is it online? Is it… I mean, the actual camp.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It could be anything. The one that we’re holding in Quebec, or we want to hold next year in Quebec, will be at a camp resort. It’ll be over a few days. It’ll be face to face. But I’ve also developed workshops and stuff like that, workshops online, virtual workshops and sessions online.
Hayley: But do you know approximately what month it is in?
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m not sure when we are going to have this next year, but I should know in the coming weeks when exactly. We’re hoping to have it from a Wednesday to a Sunday.
Hayley: Okay. Yes, because I’ve got my GCSEs exams, which are big exams and national exams.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In June?
Hayley: May and June. So I might be able to come in July or August.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You are gonna go on to A levels, yes?
Hayley: Definitely. Definitely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right on. Okay, so I will keep this in mind. I’d like to talk to you more about this in the coming weeks if you’re okay. I could set something up.
Hayley: Of course. It would be an absolute pleasure. Thank you for thinking about that.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I can’t begin to tell you, Hayley, how impressed I am. My God, at your… When I was your age, well, it was a different era then, but my gosh. Oh, I don’t know what to say. [laughs] I’m so pleased to have met you, and we will work together. Promise you that.
Hayley: Well, I’m really looking forward to it. You are a role model right now for me, and will always be really with the incredible work you’ve done, and I’m absolutely flattered to be working with you if it happens with that.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will make it happen, and I will set something up for us in the coming… One Saturday, I think, on the weekend. I don’t know which weekend. I have to look at it.
Hayley: You know what? I’ve got a calendar. I can send it over, and you can pick whenever you like.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Send it over to me, and I’ll pick it.
Hayley: Okay. It would just be the podcast calendar, but you can ignore the title.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, so we’ll just have a plain old Zoom conversation.
Hayley: Yeah, of course.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right?
Hayley: All right then.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hayley, it was a pleasure, a privilege. Thank you very, very much. You go, girl. Go get ’em. [laughs]
Hayley: [laughs] Thank you very much, Donna.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Have a good rest of the day now.
Hayley: Bye. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thanks, Hayley. Bye-bye.
Hayley: Bye.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye.
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
Global Leader In Disability Rights, Digital Accessibility, And Inclusive Policy Reform
Turning policy into progress for people with disabilities.
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Related
Remarkable World Commentary Episode #120: Interview with Hayley, Founder, Tactile Map Accessibility Project
🎙️ Listen to this Podcast.
In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Hayley, a 15-year-old blind advocate from the UK who runs a podcast, an accessibility campaign and a youth magazine, and whom Donna calls probably her youngest guest yet. Hayley explains that she was born sighted, that with her condition, Stargardt’s, her sight can never become zero, and that she wants sighted people to understand that blindness has a range: “Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing.” She describes her podcast, Beyond Vision, which she started so people can learn about blind lives without having to ask, and guests such as Lord David Blunkett and Daniel Kish, whose words that independence is also a form of freedom she now carries into her own presentations.
Hayley then tells the story behind her Tactile Map Accessibility Project: at a residential camp, when she was about 10, she pulled a rope in a disabled toilet out of curiosity and set off the emergency alarm. Her maps show where everything in a toilet is, the emergency cord included, with braille labels and a QR code that plays an audio guide, and she gives the design and toolkit away for free. She says her petition has reached around 1,044 signatures, that her school was the first to have the maps made, and that she plans to approach Surrey County Council. Donna closes by inviting Hayley to join the team behind her Believing is Achieving camps for young people.
TRANSCRIPT
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary. I’m Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate, and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I’m not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you’ll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal, and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience, and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today’s conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today’s guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and privileged and extremely excited to welcome to our show today probably the youngest guest that I have had thus far. Hayley Zia, welcome to my show.
Hayley: Donna, it’s such an honor to be invited by you. Thank you for having me.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you for being here. And you know what? When we had our interview last Tuesday, I said to myself, “This is our future, and if we could get 10 other people like you with your enthusiasm, your excitement, and your commitment, our future is in great hands.”
Hayley: You’re very kind.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] All right. Hayley, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary. At just 15 years old, you are already running a podcast, an accessibility campaign, and a youth magazine. And for listeners meeting you for the first time, who is Hayley, and how would you describe the work that you do?
Hayley: Well, I am 15 years old, and I am legally blind. I am an avid accessibility advocate for the visually impaired people, and I want to campaign for greater accessibility and independence and just confidence, as well as raising more awareness for the blind community and the visually impaired community. I am also an avid reader of Jane Austen. Absolutely love her books. And I am somewhat of a untalented musician, shall we say. Where I play the piano somewhat and the violin, and I love singing, although I’m not quite sure how much my neighbors like to hear me sing.
Hayley: How to describe myself and my work, it would be, I started my work due to mainly curiosity, and some would say I’m a bit too ambitious and just stubborn. I’m very stubborn, and when people say that it is quite the ambition to start a magazine, I think about it and I think, “Well, why don’t we try?” The internet is amazing now. You can reach people from all around the world. As I’m talking to you from the UK now, and you’re in Canada. And so you can always make, for example, a magazine international.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do your parents say to you about all of this?
Hayley: I think initially, my parents and I never expected, or at least I don’t think they expected, I definitely didn’t expect myself to start a magazine, run a podcast, start Accessibly campaigns. I have always been really outspoken. Too talkative sometimes. Gets me in a bit of trouble. Gets me in a bit of trouble, seriously. My parents, they’re very supportive. They’re very supportive.
Hayley: They are the people telling me to go out there, dream bigger, and they feel that my campaign so far, this journey towards advocacy, meeting other blind people who are so successful, so inspirational, and it teaches me a lot. For this journey I’ve only started for a few months, but I’ve definitely gone across a few challenges, uncertainties. So I think they think it’s a really good lesson for me to learn outside. It’s out of school. It’s not academic. And I can learn what I’m doing in the real world. Because I feel like school’s very important, but it’s very different to what I’m learning right now, aside from school. And I would say some teachers don’t know if I’m focusing more on my academic studies or my projects.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. Okay. Nothing wrong with that. No.
Hayley: I mean, it’s a little bit concerning. [laughs]
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in your feature for Narratives Unseen, you wrote a line that has stayed with me, and it is, “Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing.” Unquote. What did you want sighted readers to understand when you wrote it, and which misconceptions about blindness do you most want to correct?
Hayley: Well, firstly, this quote, “Blindness is not always darkness. It is sometimes nothing,” resonates with me a lot because I am not completely blind. I did not know about this until I met fellow blind people in my high school that I go to currently. I learned this about five years ago. Because I was born sighted, fully sighted until six. And then I only started using a cane when I was 11. And I fully started using Braille when I was about 10, in the last year of primary school. So I didn’t know a lot of things about blindness, and I thought it was darkness as well.
Hayley: And until one time we had an inclusivity assembly on disability week. And I decided to represent the disability society, if you call it, in my school. And I read something out in assembly, and one of the things my fellow classmates wrote about was blindness sometimes is nothing instead of darkness. It’s, for example, you can’t see out of your fingertips. Which is not always understandable, I think. So this is really important to me because I think a lot of the times people think darkness is blindness, blindness is darkness. Whereas sometimes blindness is just nothing. You can’t see out of your nose. [laughs]
Hayley: What I want sighted readers to understand the most, misconceptions about blindness is—one of the things is that a lot of the time people ask me, “Oh, how did you see that chair?” Because I can see a little bit, as I mentioned. I use a white cane all the time, constantly. Except when I’m at home, [laughs] obviously. And in class I sometimes walk around chairs, or there’s a bag on the floor and I manage to lift my foot off the ground. I sometimes see it, sometimes I don’t, but sometimes I do. And my classmates are all very shocked. They’re like, “How did you see it?”
Hayley: I’m saying there are large printers in my school, don’t get me wrong. But they think people with a white cane just can’t see at all. People with a white cane have lower vision, but sometimes they can still see. Sometimes they can see a chair. Sometimes they can see a foot, so never stick your foot out and trip them over. [laughs] Not that I have experienced that, but it’s not always a good idea ’cause they might be able to see a foot and stamp on it. And that would be what I would be tempted to do. [laughs]
Hayley: But yeah, I think that’s the biggest misconception, that blindness has a range. And for my disease, Stargardt’s, it can never become zero. There’s a large difference between having no visual perception compared to having a very, very small percentage, like 0.000001. You’ll still see a few shadows. So that’s the difference really, I think, for misconceptions.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I will share with you that I was born with very little vision, so I could see certain little things like colors and so, but they were all blurred. And then when I was in my late teens, I had a cornea transplant that changed my world completely. I learned to read and write and do all kinds of things, and my world changed. But then about 15 years ago, I lost most of it, so now I’m almost totally blind, so I think I know what you’re telling me here. Yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let’s talk about your podcast, Beyond Vision. What inspired you to start your own interview show, and what do you hope listeners, blind and sighted alike, would take away from each episode?
Hayley: So my podcast, Beyond Vision, began in, I believe, June or July, I cannot remember, and what inspired me to start it was how, over the course of my blindness, especially in the last five years, a lot of people approach me tentatively. I’ve known them for three or four years, teachers, students, or just people in public that I know, and they all are very careful about asking me how I became blind, what it’s like to be blind, how much I can see. They’re very tentative about it. I understand that sometimes people don’t wanna talk about blindness and how they became blind, because they don’t feel comfortable with it. But I feel like the public should be able to learn more about blind experiences. They’re often very curious, and they’re nervous to ask blind people. So I thought, why not create a podcast where you don’t need to ask blind people?
Hayley: There is this information out there, and you can just go listen to it yourself. Each person, just as any other person who’s not blind, has their own life, has their unique experiences, and you can listen to people with amazing careers, experiences, inspirational advice, lives, on the podcast, and that’s what the podcast aims to do, and that’s what really inspired me to start the interview shows. And over the course of just a few months of podcasting, I met so many amazing people that I never knew existed. I always knew there were two or three blind people in the world that were incredible, extremely intelligent, quite famous. But until I began my podcast and I started doing lots of research, even yesterday I was talking to my mom, and we were discussing how in the world there are so many opportunities and so many things we don’t know about, including blind people with pioneering careers and achievements.
Hayley: So for example, I research into all categories, into politics, sports, music, academics, and in your case, I went into law as well. I interviewed you recently. And Lord Blunkett, for example, I had on the show a few months ago. I found his story very inspirational. Before his political career, he had to get his degree by himself. And I just also spoke to Daniel Kish, who created World Access for the Blind. And his accessibility and his way of navigation, and obviously I spoke to you, and I saw how determined you are, dedication, to fighting the accessibility for the websites in the Canadian government. So the podcast hasn’t only really raised awareness of blind people and educated the public, it’s really educated me as well. And so that’s what’s driving me towards the journey towards keep going, basically continuing my podcast journey, and I’m very looking forward to what will happen in the future. So yeah.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If I had a crystal ball, young lady, I would say you are destined for big things. And I mean it, and I’m so impressed with what you’ve done so far. As in just a few months, you have interviewed guests ranging from fellow teenagers to Lord David Blunkett, the former Home Secretary, and Daniel Kish, the ecological pioneer, if I pronounced that correctly. [laughs] How do you choose your guests, and how did you find the courage to approach people of that stature as a young host? And I will tell you, I don’t think I would have had the nerve to do it, but tell us.
Hayley: Well, how do I choose my guests? I chose you because you made such an achievement by fighting the court case over a period of more than six years, facing the appeal, facing all the stress of it, and also determination and the gap you saw in the accessibility features in Canada. And so I chose you as one of the guests purely because of that. And how I feel like everyone I’ve invited onto the podcast so far, one key feature is that they’re incredibly resilient. Incredibly resilient. And I really admire each and every one of you that has gone on the podcast. And so as you mentioned just now, Lord Blunkett—he is an amazing politician. He went through 9/11, the Twin Towers, he had to navigate that. Daniel Kish is just incredible. I don’t know how he manages. He does tongue clicks, and he echolocates. So he uses sound waves that bounce off surfaces to know where he is. So that is very interesting.
Hayley: And I think how I approach them, well, the beauty of technology, although I have to say I’m not very good at using technology, but I can send emails. And the beauty of technology is that I can approach anyone across the world. My podcast, it’s gonna feature people from Australia, comedians. It’s gonna feature academics, professors from different universities, authors, sports athletes, musicians from all different types of industries. And I approach them because of the admiration of their career, really. And I kind of get the courage. I’m always nervous when I reach out to people, when I’m talking to someone. But when you hear their amazing story, you kind of forget, and you’re just in the zone of talking to them in the podcast. So before the recording, I’m just a bit uncertain. I’m like, “Oh, what have I gotten myself into? What did I do? Why did I email them?”
Hayley: And then after, when I get to speak to them, they’re all very, very nice. You were so nice to me when you spoke to me as well after the recording. And it’s really just mainly, you’re all very kind, very supportive, even though I understand that when I first began, not that I’ve begun for very long, but I had minimal credibility, not a lot of credibility, because people didn’t really know who I was then. People might think I’m a scam. And so I’m really grateful for people who have believed in a random 15-year-old who’s appeared on their email inbox and asks to be interviewed, and they’ve agreed. And so I find that really encouraging, and that’s really what brings me towards emailing the next person and the next one and the next one.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Have you found any barriers to the fact that you are so young, or do you tell people your age?
Hayley: Oh, yes. I make sure to tell people my age, because I don’t wanna give people surprises. [laughs] Can you imagine? [laughs] If I just appear on the podcast or my Tactile Map Accessibility Project in my presentations, and I’m just a 15-year-old girl, I think that would give them quite a shock. But definitely, as a young campaigner, I look at it through two ways. One way, they’re like, oh, it’s a youth-led podcast. Maybe they’re more reluctant. But another way, I like to be optimistic. I like to believe that maybe they will help me. Like you, you mentioned in my podcast that your campaign is to help the future generation, the children, to do what you are doing right now. And so I’m really grateful, really, to all of them who have believed in me, believed in a 15 years old girl appearing on their email inbox and asking for an interview when they’re extremely busy doing their own accessibility campaigns or advocacy work, or they are just their incredible careers.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That’s true. But like I said, you have impressed me with the way at 15 years old, to have had Daniel Blunkett on your podcast. My God, that is a coup, a real coup, you know?
Hayley: Yes. Actually, to this day, I’m not quite sure why he agreed to my podcast. But it is very, very kind of him. It is very kind of him.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And of all the conversations that you have had on Beyond Vision so far, which story or lesson has stayed with you the most? And has any guest changed the way you think about your own future?
Hayley: Wow, this is a hard question. All my guests have put me in awe. They have enabled me to see the potential ahead, the missing gap in my journey that I could still fill. There’s so much I can do in the future, and they have enabled me to see that. And they’re really, all of you on my podcast, stand as role models to me. But I think one of the lessons or thought processes that really resonated with me was Daniel Kish, when he said, “Independence is… There can never be too much accessibility. What is accessibility? Independence is also a form of freedom.” And I recently adopted that and taken it to my tactile map presentations when I present to venues from all over the world. And I emphasize to them, the Tactile Map Project is not only a form of accessibility feature, but it is also a form of freedom.
Hayley: Being able to navigate a toilet by yourself, I think, is one of the most important things I could wish for, and hopefully what other people would wish for.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That’s a very good way of looking at it, and I agree with you. I do. I understand your Tactile Map Accessibility Project grew out of a very personal experience in an accessible toilet [laughs] when you accidentally set off the emergency alarm. Please share that story with our listeners, and tell us how it became the spark for your campaign.
Hayley: Well, as you mentioned, there’s an emergency cord, alarm attached to that story. So when I was about, let me think, when I was about 10 years old or 11, 10 years old, I think, I enrolled in a residential camp, and there was a disabled toilet, and no one described the toilet to me. I mean, I don’t really blame them. Before that incident, or indeed until this year, I never realized anyone ever described the toilet to me until my mom told me that she did it every time I went in the toilet. But what happened was I was feeling around, trying to find my way around. And I felt a thin piece of rope and being curious, or maybe I don’t wanna be curious sometimes now, but I pulled on it. I was like, “What will it do? What will it do?” Like, “Come on, let’s try it out.”
Hayley: [laughs] And then nothing happened, which was very odd, so I moved along. I was like, “Okay, nothing happened. Sure.” And then two minutes later, I heard banging on the door. They were like, “Hayley, Hayley, what’s wrong? What’s wrong?” They were all panicking, and everyone was at my door, and I was like, “What’s happened? What’s happened?” I was like, “What?” And then apparently they told me to never mind and asked if I was all right, and then afterwards, apparently the entire common room, so about 30 kids in the common room, could hear the alarm going off from my bathroom. But I couldn’t hear it from my bathroom. I don’t know why. But that led me to be very embarrassed, and I thought, why don’t you change an embarrassment to something more, maybe more practical. Change it somehow.
Hayley: I only started the tactile map recently, and that was five years ago, but between the five years, I’ve also experienced other times where I didn’t know where the flush was. So I want to find the flush in the toilet, not even an accessible toilet, just a toilet, because not all venues have accessible toilets. And I try to find it, and I end up hitting my cheekbone and getting a bruise or getting hurt or just saying, “Ouch,” really loud, which is really awkward. And you don’t always wanna feel around because it’s not very nice, and you don’t know where the flush is. I always ask myself, is it a sensor? Well, is it a push? Is it a lever? Where do I push? Which way does it go? Where’s the toilet paper? Which one is the dryer? And also, where is the sink? Because now that technology has improved, you can never find where anything is, because everything’s hidden, and you just scan it. I can’t scan if I can’t see it. So, yeah, that’s the story.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I’ll tell you, a few months ago I was in the UK, and I was in a train station with my aunt, and I wanted to go to the bathroom, and I did, but like you, I felt this rope. I went, “What the hell is this? Is this the flusher? Is it… What the…” So I pulled it. And the next thing you know, banging at my door, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” And then the guy was just laughing. He said, “I had a feeling that you would pull that because you wanted to know what it was.” So, I mean, join the club, you know?
Hayley: Yeah, I’ve heard of other people’s stories where they don’t know, two buttons side by side, which one’s the flush. They push one of them, off it went. And also recently, I was talking to someone actually yesterday, and they were talking about how one time they were entering an airport, and both of them were blind. They have a staff member with them. And the staff member sent them into an accessible changing room without a toilet. But the staff member didn’t know, and each of them went in by themself. They couldn’t find a toilet, and they came back out. Wouldn’t tell anyone, so the other friend went back in a changing room. Couldn’t find a toilet and came back out, and so they had to hold it, and they never told the staff ’cause they were too embarrassed.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. That’s not good. Now, for listeners who have never come across one, what exactly is a tactile toilet map, and how does a blind person use it before stepping into the room?
Hayley: So a tactile map is a design where there are labels in braille and tactile lines showing where the door is. There’s a opening gap where the toilet is, and where the dryer is. Where is the toilet paper? Where is the sink? Where is the soap? Where is the flush, obviously, and what kind of flush it is, and most importantly, I made sure to include where the emergency cord is. And the thing is, before I started this campaign, I didn’t know that every single bathroom had a emergency cord in it. I didn’t even really think about if there was an emergency cord in it. I think it’s more of a truth that is not spoken, but known. But sighted people don’t always realize, because blind people sometimes don’t know some of the most obvious things in daily life, such as an emergency cord existing in a accessible toilet. Well, certainly I wouldn’t have exactly thought about it, and if I needed to push that thing, I wouldn’t know where it was, what it looked like, or what happens if—I don’t know what I would have done if I don’t know where the emergency cord was. So that is essentially what a tactile map is.
Hayley: But recently, I have also developed an additional thing on my website, which is adding an audio guide. So as well as tactile map, it’s in a QR code. And because I promote my tactile maps mainly to public venues like museums, zoos, theaters from all around the world, tourists come, and they speak different languages. So audio guides can give different languages. And also, not everyone knows how to read braille. Some people have deteriorating sight later in life, and audio guides might help them. Some people can’t read braille, audio guides might help them. Or you can read braille with a tactile map and the audio guide at the same time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that’s a great idea. I never even thought of that, but yeah. Yes. Now, here in Canada, our transportation regulator has fined several major airports for failing to provide tactile and braille signage to the areas that guide dogs users need. So your work resonates far beyond the UK. What would you say to building managers, airports, and businesses anywhere in the world who believe that a small accessibility fix is not worth the effort?
Hayley: I think this is certainly a very important question you’ve asked, and I thank you for asking. One thing I’ve found is, my own philosophy is that I don’t think anyone doesn’t think accessibility is worth the effort. I think everyone at heart are very kind, and they all seek to be more inclusive. Very encouraging to me, at least, when I speak to the venues. I’ve had very positive feedback. In terms of if they would be reluctant, I think, well, if you’re reluctant, be nosy. Because if other venues have, let’s say, my tactile map, and you look around at other venues, you’ll see how it works. And if then you’re interested, feel free to come. I could talk to you, and we can work stuff out from there. Be nosy, I always think. If other people have accessibility features, stay open-minded.
Hayley: But the problem with open-mindedness is that you won’t know if you’re not open-minded, if you’re absent-minded, because you don’t know yourself. And so my theory is just be nosy. Just look around at other people. Look at fellow airports. Look at fellow venues, and see what they’re doing. [laughs] Catch up with the latest. Even though if you’re not planning to do it, you can always be nosy, and just look around. Keep on the latest. Accessibility is never not worth it. It is merely a question of time.
Hayley: Sometimes venues have other things to prioritize. But certainly, I would really appreciate it if they would, when they have the time, reach out to me, which a lot of venues have said that they are quite busy right now, but would love to talk in half a year time. And they have set dates, they have set committee times where they would discuss it later this year or next year. And this really means a lot, because it doesn’t mean they’re not thinking it’s worth it. It’s merely that they’re very busy with other accessibility features that are maybe equally important. But they’re also keeping an open mind, keeping a open eye, and making sure that they are kept to the latest accessibility features. What I have found with Canada so far is that they are very, very encouraging to me. They have been very inclusive. I have a couple of venues I’m going to be speaking to and presenting to in Canada. So I think in Canada, it’s quite inclusive.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that comment. [laughs] Now, you have chosen to give your design, fitting guidance, and toolkit away for free. And your petition even tells supporters that you are not asking for donations. Why was it so important to you that anyone, anywhere can use your work without cost of permission?
Hayley: So ever since I can remember, I am only 15, but ever since I can remember, I’ve always been really inclined towards charitable works. And I never knew what I could do to actually contribute. Yes, I make donations to different venues, or I ask my parents to make donations, really. [laughs] But I never thought, “What could I actively do to contribute, to make a more positive impact in society, in the world?” And I never knew that, but apparently I’ve been told that I’ve always been a strong advocate for myself when it comes to inadequate support or accessibility, I think much to the annoyance of everyone else.
Hayley: And so [laughs] what I think is important is that my work is nonprofit. It’s to help the accessibility features. It’s to help the blind and visually impaired community. I’m not here to sell anything. I’m here merely to provide an idea, and hope that through my efforts I can encourage more venues to install tactile maps or audio guides to their toilet facilities. And I hope that increases independence, freedom, help along the way for accessibility, and I’m really very excited to see where that will go in a couple of years’ time. Because I see amazing feedback right now, and I’m really excited to see what will happen in the next week, the next month, the next year, in five years, in 10 years. I want to see how this project will go. It’s not about monetizing it. My petition is to garner support, to raise awareness, and money has never really gone into the topic. I am providing venues with ideas, and I’m gonna be really grateful to them if they take it on.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You don’t get too many young people of your age, and I’m not going to stress that your age. [laughs] But too many youngsters don’t think that way, and this is something I really wish that we could see more of, you know? People thinking, “I’m not in it for the money.” But then again, someone is gonna say to us, “Well, I need the money,” right? So it’s a balance there. I know for me, I’ve always been one to give. I think it’s important. As long as I’m able to give, I will give. Because it’s the only way that I think we can build our future in a better way. Right?
Hayley: Yes, and I think that is really important as well. That’s kind of what is bringing me towards what I’m doing right now, like podcasting and my Tactile Map Project, where people are giving in the time for me to interview them to show other people and myself their own inspirational careers, their admirable personalities and characteristics and traits, their dedication. And it’s really kind of them to respond to me, and to respond to me to talk about their experiences, and it’s nonprofit as well. My podcast is nonprofit. And it is really towards helping and making a more positive contribution to society, and that’s what my aim is.
Hayley: And if anyone ever approaches me with a nonprofit initiative, I think I would love to have a look at it and definitely see what we could do to move it on forwards. Because every day when I wake up, it’s really my incentive to wake up now to look at my emails. Otherwise I’ll be staying in bed because it’s too cold. To look at my emails and see who’s emailed me, who’s agreed to my podcast. And in the evening before bed, I look at my phone and I see emails and emails from people, and I’m like, it makes my day. It absolutely makes my day.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your petition has been closing in on its first goal of 1,000 signatures, and your next step is to take it to your school’s leadership, to the Surrey County Council. What has it been like to campaign for change as a teenager, and what would success look like for you over the coming year?
Hayley: Well, I checked today. We have reached around 1,000 and, let me think, 44 signatures, which I’m very pleased with. I’m very grateful for all the support everyone’s giving out. People I’ve emailed, venues I’ve emailed, all signed my petition, showing their support. In terms of school, my school has been the first venue, if you call it, to manufacturing my tactile maps. They were the first to help me at really the push towards… I had this idea. They were the final push to manufacturing two tactile maps for my school, because we have two accessibility toilets. And I’m very grateful to them because some of my teachers at school are absolutely amazing. They brought me to the Rotary Club to give a speech there, which is also featured on my website, https://tactilemapproject.org, where I spoke about my project and garnered everyone’s support, and they were very kind about it. They asked me questions, and it’s just helping me build this confidence and network of people I can reach out to.
Hayley: So in terms of school, I think it’s going the right way. They are looking always to improve the accessibility features, because I go to a visually impaired unit. My school has a visually impaired unit in it, so we have about 12 young people in there who are partially sighted or blind or large printers and braillists. And in terms of Surrey County Council, I’m definitely looking at emailing them about this project, seeing if we can get some installed in town centers, shopping centers, theaters nearby. And I think Surrey has always been a very inclusive society. We’re very close, all of us. And so I think that will go in a very correct direction, very right direction, positive direction really.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m going to close this interview with an offer I’d like to make to you. I’ve been working on a project called Believing is Achieving, and what it is, it is hosting camps for kids who are about ready to leave high school and those who are entering the workplace for the first time. And I say to them, “Believing is achieving. If you cannot believe, you cannot achieve. And in order to believe, you have to start off with a dream, a desire, an aspiration, something like that, right?” Once you have that in your mind, your dream, your aspiration, your belief, your desire, we can go to the next point, but you can’t go there unless this first block is met.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The next thing is to help them develop their independence, because independence is freedom, and their confidence, and then I will show them how to build virtues that will enhance their personal and professional profiles. And finally, I will help them to discover the pitfalls that they should avoid. This camp, Believing is Achieving, has legs. When I say legs, I mean it has potential. And the first thing that we’re gonna be doing is I’m working with the Independent Living Canada organization to host a week… Well, I call it a weekend camp, but it’ll be more than a weekend, in Quebec next year. I’d like to invite you to be a part of our team when we are a bit further ahead. You never know if such a camp could take off in the UK. I don’t see why it cannot take off anywhere. If you’re interested, let me know, and I’ll send you more information.
Hayley: Well, firstly, I think it’s such a good initiative really, and I’m sure it will take off anywhere you put it because it’s such a good—it’s so important really right now. I certainly know some charities I’m in contact with who talk to the young people who are looking to go into work or move on from high school, and I’m sure people in the United Kingdom would be very interested to contribute and come and join.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So in the coming weeks, I will set something up for you. Now, which is the best time to catch you? ‘Cause you’ll be five hours ahead of me as of next week. [laughs]
Hayley: Yes. Well, I am mostly free on weekends. I sleep at 11. And let me think. Oh, well, I’ve got school. That’s the problem.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, we could do it on a weekend. I mean, I’m very, very flexible.
Hayley: If you don’t mind working on a weekend. [laughs]
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I don’t. I work on the weekend all the time, so.
Hayley: Well, that’s brilliant. Yes. Well, how does this work? Is it online? Is it… I mean, the actual camp.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It could be anything. The one that we’re holding in Quebec, or we want to hold next year in Quebec, will be at a camp resort. It’ll be over a few days. It’ll be face to face. But I’ve also developed workshops and stuff like that, workshops online, virtual workshops and sessions online.
Hayley: But do you know approximately what month it is in?
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I’m not sure when we are going to have this next year, but I should know in the coming weeks when exactly. We’re hoping to have it from a Wednesday to a Sunday.
Hayley: Okay. Yes, because I’ve got my GCSEs exams, which are big exams and national exams.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In June?
Hayley: May and June. So I might be able to come in July or August.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You are gonna go on to A levels, yes?
Hayley: Definitely. Definitely.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right on. Okay, so I will keep this in mind. I’d like to talk to you more about this in the coming weeks if you’re okay. I could set something up.
Hayley: Of course. It would be an absolute pleasure. Thank you for thinking about that.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I can’t begin to tell you, Hayley, how impressed I am. My God, at your… When I was your age, well, it was a different era then, but my gosh. Oh, I don’t know what to say. [laughs] I’m so pleased to have met you, and we will work together. Promise you that.
Hayley: Well, I’m really looking forward to it. You are a role model right now for me, and will always be really with the incredible work you’ve done, and I’m absolutely flattered to be working with you if it happens with that.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will make it happen, and I will set something up for us in the coming… One Saturday, I think, on the weekend. I don’t know which weekend. I have to look at it.
Hayley: You know what? I’ve got a calendar. I can send it over, and you can pick whenever you like.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Send it over to me, and I’ll pick it.
Hayley: Okay. It would just be the podcast calendar, but you can ignore the title.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, so we’ll just have a plain old Zoom conversation.
Hayley: Yeah, of course.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right?
Hayley: All right then.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hayley, it was a pleasure, a privilege. Thank you very, very much. You go, girl. Go get ’em. [laughs]
Hayley: [laughs] Thank you very much, Donna.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Have a good rest of the day now.
Hayley: Bye. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thanks, Hayley. Bye-bye.
Hayley: Bye.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye.
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donnajodhan@gmail.com. Until next time.
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA
Global Leader In Disability Rights, Digital Accessibility, And Inclusive Policy Reform
Turning policy into progress for people with disabilities.
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Published in Remarkable World Commentary